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Disregarding a stop sign

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redlemon

Junior Member
What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Michigan

I was out in Romulus, MI, by the airport yesterday, trying to keep my daughter napping. I got pulled over for apparently disregarding a stop sign. At first, when I saw his lights flash, I had absolutely no idea why he would pull me over. I'm exceedingly careful while driving with my daughter because of an accident I had years ago (a guy "didn't see a red light" and slammed into me). The officer seemed to have made up his mind to give me a ticket before even approaching my car. When I said that I knew I had come to a full stop, he rudely told me to "put my car in drive" (I did) and then said, "That's a REAL stop". When I asked which stop sign this had happened at, he mumbled something about when I turned, which just confused me even more because I hadn't turned at all! I had been going straight on the road! This is the first time I've ever even been pulled over, never even gotten a parking ticket, so I was nervous. I thought maybe I would be let off with a warning, but the officer handed me my ticket and said they had a "zero-tolerance policy".

So I guess my questions fall to this: Is "disregarding a stop sign" the same as a rolling stop violation? It seems harsh (to me) to put a rolling stop in the same category as blowing the sign. And, since I at least want to have my side of the story heard, how often do officers not show up to court? What should I say? I'm almost 100% certain I stopped all the way (there's a bit of nagging doubt, but I think that's from getting the ticket) but there's no way to prove it one way or the other.
 


Zigner

Senior Member, Non-Attorney
What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Michigan

I was out in Romulus, MI, by the airport yesterday, trying to keep my daughter napping. I got pulled over for apparently disregarding a stop sign. At first, when I saw his lights flash, I had absolutely no idea why he would pull me over. I'm exceedingly careful while driving with my daughter because of an accident I had years ago (a guy "didn't see a red light" and slammed into me). The officer seemed to have made up his mind to give me a ticket before even approaching my car. When I said that I knew I had come to a full stop, he rudely told me to "put my car in drive" (I did) and then said, "That's a REAL stop". When I asked which stop sign this had happened at, he mumbled something about when I turned, which just confused me even more because I hadn't turned at all! I had been going straight on the road! This is the first time I've ever even been pulled over, never even gotten a parking ticket, so I was nervous. I thought maybe I would be let off with a warning, but the officer handed me my ticket and said they had a "zero-tolerance policy".

So I guess my questions fall to this: Is "disregarding a stop sign" the same as a rolling stop violation? It seems harsh (to me) to put a rolling stop in the same category as blowing the sign. And, since I at least want to have my side of the story heard, how often do officers not show up to court? What should I say? I'm almost 100% certain I stopped all the way (there's a bit of nagging doubt, but I think that's from getting the ticket) but there's no way to prove it one way or the other.
You DO know that when you "roll" through a stop sign, that means that you disregarded it, right? a "rolling stop" is simply slang for disregarding the stop sign.

The officer is not going to argue the citation with you on the side of the road. If you want to argue it, you will need to do it through the proper channels.
 

redlemon

Junior Member
I'm not arguing it, nor did I comment on that to the officer. I was just curious on that point, since it seems harsh to me.
 

Zigner

Senior Member, Non-Attorney
I'm not arguing it, nor did I comment on that to the officer. I was just curious on that point, since it seems harsh to me.
Per your original post, you argued with the officer about the stop. A smart officer is not going to argue the matter on the roadside.
And, why does it seem harsh? You ran the stop sign.
 

redlemon

Junior Member
I'm sorry, I didn't mean to make it sound like I argued. I didn't. I just told him that I was sure I had stopped and he got snippy with me on what a "real" stop was. I didn't say anything more after that, other then "okay". If that is arguing, I'm really not sure what I could have said in response to him when he asked if there was a reason I didn't come to a full stop.

I guess it seems harsh because I've never had a ticket before. Like I said, I've never even been pulled over in my 10 years of driving. And I'm nearly absolutely sure I stopped fully. I always make sure someone else isn't going to run a stop sign or a red light before I go, especially with my daughter in the car.
 

Proseguru

Member
why cops gives tickets out for this reason astounds me ... no-one was endangered by the very slow cross the stop sign.

OP, what exact statue did he cite you for? You may have an out..
 

redlemon

Junior Member
why cops gives tickets out for this reason astounds me ... no-one was endangered by the very slow cross the stop sign.

OP, what exact statue did he cite you for? You may have an out..
Disregarding a stop sign, 257.649. I looked it up on the MI legislature website and found its exact wording, which is: (6) Except when directed to proceed by a police officer, the driver of a vehicle approaching a stop intersection indicated by a stop sign shall stop before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection, or if there is not a crosswalk shall stop at a clearly marked stop line; or if there is not a crosswalk or a clearly marked stop line, then at the point nearest the intersecting roadway where the driver has a view of approaching traffic on the intersecting roadway. After having stopped, the driver shall yield the right of way to a vehicle which has entered the intersection from another highway or which is approaching so closely on the highway as to constitute an immediate hazard during the time when the driver would be moving across or within the intersection.


Put into those words, I guess I was quite clueless about how running a stop sign is the same thing as just a rolling stop, but I must admit that I'm a tad worked up over the whole thing. This would be three points on my license (which can be taken off if I take some 6 hour driving class) and I'm just more then a little irked that the guy who hit me a few years ago was ticketed with a two point offense, when he totaled my car, and this is three points.
 

FlyingRon

Senior Member
Put into those words, I guess I was quite clueless about how running a stop sign is the same thing as just a rolling stop, but I must admit that I'm a tad worked up over the whole thing.
When you run a stop sign, you fail to "stop before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection."

When you roll a stop sing, you fail to "stop before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection."

Put in those words, a fail to see how rolling a stop sign isn't in fact EXACTLY THE SAME as running one.
In neither case did you comply with the "shall stop" words in the law.
 

redlemon

Junior Member
When you run a stop sign, you fail to "stop before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection."

When you roll a stop sing, you fail to "stop before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection."

Put in those words, a fail to see how rolling a stop sign isn't in fact EXACTLY THE SAME as running one.
In neither case did you comply with the "shall stop" words in the law.
Okay, I get the whole failing to stop is the same thing as a rolling stop now. I see where I was confused and I see how they're the same.

I'm still absolutely sure I stopped fully and I'd like some advice on what to say when I go in for an informal hearing. If I wasn't sure that I had stopped, I would just pay the ticket and be on my way. It would be a lot less stress and anxiety for me to just pay up and chalk this all up to an experience of life. But I'm around 99.5% sure I stopped full and complete. I'd just like to know what to say in court, what it'll be like, or what to expect. I'm not looking for some fast way to get off the hook or anything, I'm perfectly willing to pay a ticket that I deserve. If the officer came into court with video of me, I'd totally just pay my fines and be on my way. But, like I said, I'm sure I stopped.

Can I please have some advice on what to say at the informal hearing? Or at least what I should expect?
 

Zigner

Senior Member, Non-Attorney
The best hope you would have is showing that the officer didn't have a good view of the incident.

Beyond that, it's their evidence (the testimony of an unbiased police officer) against your evidence (the testimony of an individual who has a financial stake in the ticket being overturned). Whose evidence do you think will carry more weight?

Perhaps you ought to consider the 6 hour traffic school...
 

redlemon

Junior Member
The best hope you would have is showing that the officer didn't have a good view of the incident.

Beyond that, it's their evidence (the testimony of an unbiased police officer) against your evidence (the testimony of an individual who has a financial stake in the ticket being overturned). Whose evidence do you think will carry more weight?

Perhaps you ought to consider the 6 hour traffic school...
That's what I thought. I was hoping maybe explaining my clean record would help in court, but since it's a he-said-she-said sort of deal, I wasn't too hopeful. Would it hurt me to at least go to an informal hearing and try? Would I get any additional penalties or fines if I did go that route and at least tried?

And trust me, I am going back and forth on whether or not it's just worth it to pay up, take the online class, and just go on my way.
 

Zigner

Senior Member, Non-Attorney
Having a clean prior record won't hurt, but I doubt it will help much either. It just shows that you haven't been caught breaking the law up until now. I don't know how your local court will operate, so I can't offer any information as to possible additional negative consequences of going to the informal hearing and losing.
 

Proseguru

Member
Well, listen to the officer's testimony. If it is marked with a crosswalk then that line is the prevailing line. So if the cop says you did not stop at the stop line, say nothing and let the state rest.

Then motion for acquittal - the cop did not provide any evidence that you violated the stop sign.

About a 50/50 chance.
 

Zigner

Senior Member, Non-Attorney
Well, listen to the officer's testimony. If it is marked with a crosswalk then that line is the prevailing line. So if the cop says you did not stop at the stop line, say nothing and let the state rest.

Then motion for acquittal - the cop did not provide any evidence that you violated the stop sign.
Terrible.
The state is offering evidence! (you DO know that testimony is evidence, right?) Based on your strategy, the OP would be letting the state present their evidence and then presenting NOTHING to contradict or otherwise call that evidence in to question.

About a 50/50 chance.
At being laughed at? Sure. But using your strategy, OP stands a 100% chance of losing.
 

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