Does an officer have to admit his and vantage point when assigning a speeding ticket?

[Nipsy3]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Pennsylvania

I was pulled over in a small town that I pass through on my commute to work this morning. It's a 25mph zone with a 35 zone before and after town. I was cited for going 40 in the 25. The thing is that I'm conscious enough to know where the police sit and what speed I'm going while in town. I've been taking that route for almost 2 1/2 years, so I know the deal. I make it a point to drive the limit and I'm quite sure I was doing no more than 25 through town, but likely sped up after town once in the 35 zone. Though I'm baffled about where he was sitting, the officer insists that I was still in the 25 zone, but refused to tell me his location so I could identify exactly where I was cited and what his viewpoint was. I simply wanted to know what I did wrong and where, but he would only tell me that I was speeding at the end of town, but wouldn't give his vantage point. The description on the ticket is the 400 block of the street. A portion of this 400 block is actually in the 35 zone.

The other thing that's funny is when I saw him, he was coming at me like a bat out of hell with his lights on. I looked down, well into the 35 zone at this point, and I was only going 37. On my way home from work, I measured from the end of the 400 block to where I first saw him in my rear view and it was literally .9 miles. As fast as he was going, it seems very unlikely that he was sitting at that 400 block because it took way too long to catch up as fast as he was going. I don't believe there were any cars he had to go around. Like I said, I travel the road frequently and sometimes see police sitting closer to where I got pulled over, well into the 35 zone. It would make sense if he were sitting there, but I wasn't speeding there. It seems strange that he took that long to catch up and wouldn't tell me where he was waiting.

I don't really speed and have never gotten a ticket. So, I did some research and in Pennsylvania there is requirement for going greater than 10 mph over using vascar before being cited to account for human error. Therefore, it could be argued that I was only going 30 in a 25 with that allowance, which seems neglible in my opinion given the area and conditions. I was already through town and there is nothing on either side of the road to really warrant a 25 mph at that area. As a matter of fact, given the conditions, the limit is 45 further down the road past the 35.

1. With the vague location description on the ticket and his refusal to tell me his location, how can I make a case in court that I was past the 25 zone?
2. Does he have to disclose his location when citing me? When I kept asking him where he was at, he actually told me to fight the ticket. But again, how can I make a case without the info.

[justalayman]

=Nipsy3;2266989]
1. With the vague location description on the ticket and his refusal to tell me his location, how can I make a case in court that I was past the 25 zone?

Not sure what the officer location has to do with what speed zone you were in. Either you were in the 25 zone or not.

2. Does he have to disclose his location when citing me?

I'm betting he was standing right beside your car when he cited you. As to where he was when he observed you speeding; not unless/until you go to court and seek the info.

When I kept asking him where he was at, he actually told me to fight the ticket. But again, how can I make a case without the info.

well, if you are not guilty, you make that plea to the court and then find all the information you want or need to defend your position.

[Nipsy3]

Originally Posted by justalayman

Not sure what the officer location has to do with what speed zone you were in. Either you were in the 25 zone or not.

I'm betting he was standing right beside your car when he cited you. As to where he was when he observed you speeding; not unless/until you go to court and seek the info.

well, if you are not guilty, you make that plea to the court and then find all the information you want or need to defend your position.

Either you think you're quite clever, or you don't seem to have read this very well. He was using vascar. He basically has to be looking at the vascar zone perpendicularly, which would put him in the same zone as me. So why can't he tell me where this happened? Why wouldn't he? What does he have to hide?

I make the plea on the ticket and then get a notification of trial in the mail. Once hearing this info at the trial, do I get time to examine the area and make my case at another trial?

[Nipsy3]

I just did some math and realized what the margin for human error could be with VASCAR. If the officer starts his timer .25 seconds too soon or too late, it's almost a 5 mph difference. Now take into account that he has to stop the timer and if he's off by .25 seconds again, he could be off by almost 10 mph! And that's all in a 2 second span if a person really is going 35 mph in a 100 foot distance!

[justalayman]

Originally Posted by Nipsy3

Either you think you're quite clever, or you don't seem to have read this very well. He was using vascar. He basically has to be looking at the vascar zone perpendicularly, which would put him in the same zone as me. So why can't he tell me where this happened? Why wouldn't he? What does he have to hide?

I make the plea on the ticket and then get a notification of trial in the mail. Once hearing this info at the trial, do I get time to examine the area and make my case at another trial?

you have a period of time for discovery before trial.

[Maestro64]

From the sound of it, he wrote down the location where he physically stopped you not the place where is measured the speed. Which you could used to your advantage since he will most likely say in court he measured you at the 400 block since most officers do not remember details months later and just read from the ticket.

Next, it should be easy to identify where he measured you, look for the white lines on the roads. That will tell you exactly where is measured you. Next PA has a law that says they can not measure speed within 500 ft of a speed change. So if he was measuring you at the very beginning or end of the 25MPH zone then he could have been in violation of this law.

IF the lines are not in the 400 block then you can call into question whether he actually measured your speed where he claims.

There are a whole number of things you can challenge about this stop. However, do not challenge the reaction time since PA does not allow tickets to be written unless your 10 over which takes into account this possible error. Focus on the distance since many time the officer do not measure it they assume it to be a particular distance or someone told it was, at that point that information becomes hearsay, which means it is not admissible. Also, PA requires that the office has to bring a number of "original" documents to the court room, no copies are allowed.

If you do your research you can find out what you need to know. Also, as the other person who pointed out that is what discovery is for well, PA does not allow discovery for traffic cases. Also you do not defend your position you make the police defend and substantiate their position, remember the burden resides with them not you, unless you do not challenge them.

[FlyingRon]

A skilled stopwatch operator can get within a few hundredths of a second (I time racecars at a NASCAR facility).

You'll have to discover and determine whether this was the case for the operator. But I can tell you the odds are stacked against you in Pennsylvania. The courts will assume the validity of the information provided by the officer.

[racer72]

So, I did some research and in Pennsylvania there is requirement for going greater than 10 mph over using vascar before being cited to account for human error. Therefore, it could be argued that I was only going 30 in a 25 with that allowance, which seems neglible in my opinion given the area and conditions.

You are incorrect on how the 10 mph grace is used. It means someone driving 35 and under won't be cited. It doesn't mean you subtract 10 mph from your actual speed.

[Maestro64]

Also, to racer72's point, PA is a absolute speed limit state, you are guilt of speeding even 1 MPH over the limit. Most people loose in court because the try and argue or demonstrate with reaction time they were less then what the officer claims to have measured and within in the 10 MPH buffer, however, if you use that argument the judge will turn the table on you and simply ask were you doing x speed over the limit and is you say yes or provide an affirmative response he will find you guilty at that point.

This is why you just attach the officer's facts and do not justify it by say I was not speeding at x speed because I was at y speed above the limit.

[Maestro64]

Originally Posted by FlyingRon

A skilled stopwatch operator can get within a few hundredths of a second (I time racecars at a NASCAR facility).

I have to challenge you on that statement. There are plenty of studies done on this subject and the average person reaction time is in the neighborhood of 0.5 secs or more especially for an event which they can not necessarily anticipated, now the standard deiviation may be in the hundreds of a sec but they are still around 0.5 or more. Also Drag racers have been found to have the fastest reaction time which is in the area of 0.2 and 0.3 second and this is because they can anticipated the event and their standard deviation is around .08 seconds. I highly doubt you are better then a drag racers.

To prove this to yourself, take a 12 inch ruler and have someone drop it between your fingers and try to grab it as fast as you can after they drop it. Roughly every inch it drops from its starting point to the point you grab it is equal to about 0.1 seconds. If your reaction time is in the hundreds of a seconds you should be able to grab it in less then an inch.

[Nipsy3]

Originally Posted by Maestro64

Next, it should be easy to identify where he measured you, look for the white lines on the roads. That will tell you exactly where is measured you. Next PA has a law that says they can not measure speed within 500 ft of a speed change. So if he was measuring you at the very beginning or end of the 25MPH zone then he could have been in violation of this law.

Actually the law only states that they can't measure speed within 500 feet after the decrease of a speed limit is indicated.

I don't recall seeing lines on the road anywhere. I believe they're permitted to use landmarks for timing as long as they're measured beforehand.

[justalayman]

Originally Posted by Maestro64

I have to challenge you on that statement. There are plenty of studies done on this subject and the average person reaction time is in the neighborhood of 0.5 secs or more especially for an event which they can not necessarily anticipated, now the standard deiviation may be in the hundreds of a sec but they are still around 0.5 or more. Also Drag racers have been found to have the fastest reaction time which is in the area of 0.2 and 0.3 second and this is because they can anticipated the event and their standard deviation is around .08 seconds. I highly doubt you are better then a drag racers.

To prove this to yourself, take a 12 inch ruler and have someone drop it between your fingers and try to grab it as fast as you can after they drop it. Roughly every inch it drops from its starting point to the point you grab it is equal to about 0.1 seconds. If your reaction time is in the hundreds of a seconds you should be able to grab it in less then an inch.

trying to catch a ruler is very different than timing a person driving down the road. You are not dealing with reacting to a person acting and you not knowing when they will act. When you are timing a person, you know approximately when they will pass any given point and you are reacting to that.




even in your race car analogy, the driver does not know when the light will change yet the officer did know when the driver would pass the line so the actual timing would be more accurate

[davew128]

Originally Posted by FlyingRon

A skilled stopwatch operator can get within a few hundredths of a second (I time racecars at a NASCAR facility).

As someone who still sprints competitively for USATF, I can tell you that the general rule for hand timed versus FAT is that you should add .15 seconds to any time given by someone using a stopwatch with an index finger and .25 seconds if using their thumb.

[FlyingRon]

Originally Posted by davew128

As someone who still sprints competitively for USATF, I can tell you that the general rule for hand timed versus FAT is that you should add .15 seconds to any time given by someone using a stopwatch with an index finger and .25 seconds if using their thumb.

THere's no need to add time in VASCAR/ROBIC or timing with a stopwatch. Any delay in pushing the button on stop is countered in pushing it on start. That's a bit different than going between the gun time and the actual finish in a foot race. I can tell you, that those of us skilled in the electronic stop watches can easily within a tenth, and using about .02-.04 of the electric eye timer on the track.

Note that when using an audible cue, I'm no where near as accurate. With a car approaching a line, you have the advantage of being able to anticipate when they will cross.

[Maestro64]

Originally Posted by Nipsy3

Actually the law only states that they can't measure speed within 500 feet after the decrease of a speed limit is indicated.

I don't recall seeing lines on the road anywhere. I believe they're permitted to use landmarks for timing as long as they're measured beforehand.

Yep they can use land marks, and sometime they place cones on the road and such. And they some times measure the distance by pacing it off, or as some patrol cars due have measurement wheels in the car for accident reconstruction. The question was the measuring wheel calibrated, most likely not. Also, when they use landmark marks the distance is usually not exact like 100 ft. Also, if he enter the Distance in to the VASCAR unit he had to first convert the distance from feet to miles then enter it into the computer however he had to round the number off since it only takes 3 decimal places and depending on whether he rounded up or down could effect the calculated speed.