Failure to obey traffic sign

[rcl1sg]

What is the name of your state? California

While on a mall parking lot I was driving along a perimeter traffic lane. At a stop sign I made a right hand turn onto the "mall's private driveway" which is wholly on the private property of the mall. At this intersection is another "traffic lane" coming in from the left.

The drive is designated by the mall as a one way in only driveway. The driveway ends at the property line and a public street begins. The public street has no signage whatsoever indicating a direction of travel restrictions and is pavement marked for two way traffic.

The mall has a mixture of both MUTCD compliant and non MUTCD compliant signage.

Upon exiting the mall I was ticketed by a city officer for violating CVC 21461(a).

My reading of the applicable provision would seem to indicate that the officer had no legal authority to issue a citation:

21461. (a) It is unlawful for a driver of a vehicle to fail to obey
a sign or signal defined as regulatory in the federal Manual on
Uniform Traffic Control Devices, or a Department of Transportation
approved supplement to that manual of a regulatory nature erected or
maintained to enhance traffic safety and operations or to indicate
and carry out the provisions of this code or a local traffic
ordinance or resolution adopted pursuant to a local traffic
ordinance, or to fail to obey a device erected or maintained by
lawful authority of a public body or official.

The drive is not a public street, and the signage is not erected or maintained by lawful authority if a public body or official. The signage at the intersection within the mall parking lot is non MUTCD compliant.

Can I fight and win?

[Zigner]

Originally Posted by rcl1sg

Can I fight

Of course...

and win?

50-50 chance, more or less.

[CdwJava]

Originally Posted by rcl1sg

Upon exiting the mall I was ticketed by a city officer for violating CVC 21461(a).

What sign did you allegedly disobey/ignore? What did it say, and what did you do?

The drive is not a public street, and the signage is not erected or maintained by lawful authority if a public body or official. The signage at the intersection within the mall parking lot is non MUTCD compliant.

How do you know this? Have you checked with the city engineer's office? If there is signage on the street or sidewalk, or public easement, it might very well have been erected by the city. Certainly a sign erected solely by the mall would have no bearing as an official traffic control device, but it might very well have been erected at the direction of the city even if paid for by the mall.

The presumption is likely to be that the sign is valid unless you can show that the sign was neither on public property, nor erected by the city pursuant to ordinance or state law, or that the sign was in some manner deficient.

I can think of a number of signs in cities where I used to work where the apparent mall signs were actually erected by the city. These were enforceable. The ones NOT erected by the city and only at their direction via planning, were NOT enforceable for 21461 ... but, they DID help when articulating other offenses such as an unsafe turn.

We don't even HAVE a mall in the town where I live now.

- Carl

[rcl1sg]

I went to all the oneway intersections I could find and without exception the signage is MUTCD compliant:

1. Approaching the intersection is a MUTCD compliant direction of turn restriction sign.
2. At the intersection is a MUTCD compliant oneway sign.
3. Facing the motorist is MUTCD compliant Do Not Enter and Wrong way signage.

On the parking lot the signage is not placed in compliance with MUTCD.

I am going to:

1. Verify with the mall administration as to the ownership of the signage, the exact limits of their property line and ownership of the driveway.
2. Verify with the city traffic engineers office for the same facts and verify that their signage is uniformly MUTCD compliant. Most muncipalities have gone 100% MUTCD compliant due to liability issues arising from non compliant signage.

[CdwJava]

Originally Posted by rcl1sg

1. Verify with the mall administration as to the ownership of the signage, the exact limits of their property line and ownership of the driveway.

Ownership does not necessarily imply that the sign is unlawful. There may be an ordinance that makes these privately erected and maintained signs enforceable ... not sure I've ever seen it, but I'm told that they do exist even in CA. Remember the section mentions that the sign must be erected or maintained "by lawful authority" of the local government, not that it has to be owned or even on the property of the local government.

- Carl