Florida - two moving citations at once, NO empathy from officers

[lustfirlife]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Florida

Several days ago, I was driving home and started to experience SEVERE abdominal cramping and pain. I have both ulcerative colitis (and 30 years of medical charts to prove it) and irritable bowel syndrome (I know, this is all quite savory and fascinating, but unfortunately pertinent to the situation).

I was driving home on a route that I know has no traffic lights (since the traffic lights in Florida are the MOST ridiculous in terms of length of time, I have figured out routes to avoid them). Unfortunately, when I came to a stop sign at which I intended to turn left, I saw that there was a minivan driving V-E-R-Y slowly down the route that I intended to take, and so I continued on, praying that the upcoming light would be green.

Sadly, my prayers were unheeded, and it was red. I took a legal left turn into a closed auto repair shop, and then another legal left turn out of the auto repair shop.

And then I saw the lights.

From TWO patrol cars.

Since I clearly need two patrol cars to control me.

I turned off onto the nearest side street (which just happened to be directly adjacent to the local police precinct). The first policeman, a Lieutenant Cramer, came over to my open window and indicated that he was citing me for two violations, one for running a stop sign (he indicated that I had not made ANY attempt to stop) and the second for "drive to avoid traffic control device" - which apparently makes two rights (or lefts, in this case) equal a wrong.

He then asked "Are you in a hurry" (or rush, I don't actually remember).

I explained that, yes, I was in a rush, trying to get to my home a few blocks away in order to use the restroom. I told him that I have ulcerative colitis (for 30 WONDERFUL years - no, didn't actually say that) and REALLY needed to use the bathroom.

He had me pull into the police precinct parking lot, led me into a COMPLETELY dark corridor, and told me to use the restroom there. After fumbling with several doors, he finally showed me the actual restroom, and I was able to relieve myself.

The lieutenant then told me to get back in my car, and the other officer would give me my citations.

I had hoped that there might be an ounce of empathy in either of the officers. HOWEVER, not so much. I was told that, yeah, we all have times where we need to use the bathroom and, yeah, here are the two citations.

The cavalier manner in which BOTH officers approached my medical condition was hugely offensive to me AND the fact that the Lieutenant asked me if I was rushing and then COMPLETELY ignored the valid answer I gave him (but INSTEAD used it as fodder to humiliate me), is at the crux of the matter (at least for me -- I am now sure that the law has absolutely no interest). BOTH Lieutenant Cramer and Policeman Carpenter denigrated me, tellling me that I had a "little stomach ache" and saying I should have found another place to go to the bathroom (the fact that there was, in fact, no public restroom closer to that location than my home apparently did not stop them from insisting that I use that nonexistent bathroom). Trust me, I have on many occasions run into a Starbucks or the like when one was immediately available. Unfortunately, that was not the case on this day.

And it is also unfortunate that they felt it necessary to ask me if I had a reason for rushing, and then totally ignore my reason and, in fact, use my answer to further verbally abuse me. Ulcerative colitis is NOT a "little upset stomach" (and the well-established relationship with colon cancer will quickly put that discussion to bed).

Ulcerative colitis is a type of autoimmune, inflammatory bowel disease which, along with Crohn's Disease (together called Inflammatory Bowel Disease, or IBD), can lead to gastrointestinal bleeding, gastrointestinal perforation, colon cancer, and a host of other associated ailments. Combined with my irritable bowel syndrome (IBS), it intermittently causes EXTREME cramping pain and urgency. To belittle my (or ANYONE'S) medical condition is uncalled for, and I would hope that the police department would have some type of rule against this. I was as polite as I could be, and did not deserve that treatment.

I have filed a complaint with internal affairs, although I'm sure that, since I wasn't beaten, it will be ignored.

My question is this: what is the best way for me to proceed?

There seems to be three options: (1) accept both citations, take traffic court to get rid of three of the points, and take (ironically, up the ass) the other three points; (2) fight BOTH citations in court, and hope that the judge shows some leniency (I KNOW that I at least slowed down, and probably stopped, at the stop sign, which contradicts what the Lieutenant said, but am not sure if I might possibly have rolled through the stop sign while in pain - I JUST DON'T KNOW FOR SURE, although I DO know for sure that it did NOT go down the way the Lieutenant said it did, since I had enough time at that corner to a) see the slow-moving minivan, and b) decide to take my chances with the upcoming traffic light), or (3) take traffic school for one of the citations and fight the other citation in court, risking that I would STILL get the three points on my license AND be charged $500 for court costs. I CAN pay for the $500, but I'm not rich, and it is a considerable amount of money.

Any help or advice would be MUCH appreciated.

 

[cyjeff]

I am confused.

Are you saying that you willingly avoided a traffic control device?

The first ticket is a matter of conjecture. Your word against the officers... but you said you "continued on" which means you DIDN'T stop.

The second is obviously incorrect as well.

What you are really saying is that your condition should allow you to ignore traffic control devices when needed.

That is not a valid defense. If you have a disease that requires you to occasionally ignore the law, the judge will simply state that your disease should then prevent you from driving at all.

For what it is worth, there are a couple of officers that post here... ask them how often they hear "I really have to go to the bathroom" as the reason a driver commits any number of traffic violations.

 

[OHRoadwarrior]

Obviously, you knew of the impending need several minutes before this situation occurred. You chose the route based on the impending need. You could have chosen an alternative route to a restroom, closer than your home. A police station, for example.

 

[Zigner]

Our OP was able to "hold it" until s/he got to the police station. I bet that the wait time at the stop sign and the traffic signal would have been much less...

 

[cyjeff]

OP... the officers are not doctors. They are not legally allowed to diagnose your medical condition.

Therefore, they acted upon the facts they witnessed.

You ran a stop sign. You blew through a business so that a red light wouldn't slow you down.

I am just glad there were no pedestrians between you and a bathroom... apparently, your medical condition would allow you to view them as collateral damage.

 

[demurringdude]

(I KNOW that I at least slowed down, and probably stopped, at the stop sign,

Thats funny right there.

But seriously, if you have a long-standing medical condition that prevents you from driving in accordance with the law, you might want to think twice about advertising that fact to the authorities, since you might lose your license. Paying the tickets might be your better option.

 

[davew128]

apparently, your medical condition would allow you to view them as collateral damage.

Much like being forced to sit in the back seat behind him/her.

 

[lustfirlife]

Thanks for all of your completely useless comments.

Oh, so all of you advocate that ANY person with ANY chronic disease that EVER could possibly interfere with their functioning should not be allowed to drive.

I'm not sure that the Americans with Disabilities Act would necessarily agree with you. Do all of you REALLY think that ALL of those people with the disabled signs have the reflexes of someone without those disabilities??? But, according to you, they shouldn't be allowed to drive because they would pose a danger because they don't have the reflexes to respond to an acute situation the same as the rest of us (and, BTW, I'd put my reflexes up against ANY of you).

You ALL would be FABULOUS unempathetic police personnel.

Oh, and especially to cyjeff, they may not be doctors, but if they just, oh, I don't know, happened to have ANY empathy, they might just be people, which they clearly are not.

And when they tell me, well, we all have stomach upset at times, like their experience AT ALL coincides with mine, I SO wish that I could somehow transfer MY diseases to them, full-time, full-on. I would be much amused by how they would then feel about the whole thing. According to you all, they would then have to give up their jobs and stay at home, 24 hours a day.

I know that this will strain all of your limited cognitive abilities, but try to think about that for a second.

Actually, I wish that I could transfer my diseases to ALL of you, and see if you ALL think that you should never drive again. It's not like I haven't been seeing doctors for 30 years and taken buckets of medications in an attempt to control this. Should a diabetic never be allowed to drive because they just MIGHT go into diabetic coma? Should someone with high blood pressure not be allowed to drive because they might have a stroke?

Think about the TRUE implications of what you are saying.

I did not lose consciousness, and put exactly ZERO number of people at risk. If it came down to endangering someone else or crapping in my pants, I'd crap in my pants. Sorry if none of you can discern the difference between turning into a deserted automotive repair shop on a completely deserted street in order to get home before I crapped my pants, and running a light into a crowd of pedestrians. The first endangers exactly NOBODY and hurts exactly NOBODY. And that is what I did (and did not even realize that making a LEGAL turn into a business and then another LEGAL turn out of the business somehow constituted an infraction. Sorry, NOT a lawyer. Why would that be intuitively obvious? And NOWHERE does it show up in the Florida driver's manual. NOW i know, but I didn't then. And sorry, cyjeff, NEVER said I "blew" through the business. I made a turn and then made another turn, making sure that no one was in the way on a completely deserted street. YOU, in particular, would make a FABULOUS ******* cop. Assume incorrect things, and then come down as hard as possible.

Have any of you crapped in your pants? If not, then I TOTALLY wish that lovely feeling and experience for ALL of you.

Oh, and Zigner and OHRoadwarrior, sorry that I have no crystal ball to tell me exactly when this might strike. I have used MANY Starbucks and the like when they were available. But, are you both unable to read? I specifically said that there was NO public bathroom closer to me at that point than my home. And the police precinct was NOT open for use (hah, hah, hah, OHRoadwarrior - TREMENDOUSLY funny) until the cop stopped me and then unlocked the door for me, graciously allowing me to TRY to find the bathroom in a COMPLETELY dark corridor (since, why would anyone with NO empathy actually turn on a light so that I could see where I was going)?

Again, you are using your own experiences to judge me. NONE of you have ulcerative colitis. I know, because then NONE of you would have written the things that you did.

And I didn't come onto this forum to ask for that. AT ALL. If you didn't want to give any helpful advice, you could have simply kept your useless opinions to yourself.

Honestly, most of you are EXACTLY like the cops. Why the **** are you even on the site? Most of you never even addressed my specific question, you just used this as a way to berate me and belittle me. JUST like the cops. demurringdude was the only one to at least give a little hint of a helpful suggestion. But even he couldn't help himself from attacking me a little.

Thanks for, oh, NOTHING.

 

[Proserpina]

Oh, so all of you advocate that ANY person with ANY chronic disease that EVER could possibly interfere with their functioning should not be allowed to drive.

I'm not sure that the Americans with Disabilities Act would necessarily agree with you. Do all of you REALLY think that ALL of those people with the disabled signs have the reflexes of someone without those disabilities??? But, according to you, they shouldn't be allowed to drive because they would pose a danger because they don't have the reflexes to respond to an acute situation the same as the rest of us (and, BTW, I'd put my reflexes up against ANY of you).

You ALL would be FABULOUS unempathetic police personnel.

Oh, and especially to cyjeff, they may not be doctors, but if they just, oh, I don't know, happened to have ANY empathy, they might just be people, which they clearly are not.

And when they tell me, well, we all have stomach upset at times, like their experience AT ALL coincides with mine, I SO wish that I could somehow transfer MY diseases to them, full-time, full-on. I would be much amused by how they would then feel about the whole thing. According to you all, they would then have to give up their jobs and stay at home, 24 hours a day.

I know that this will strain all of your limited cognitive abilities, but try to think about that for a second.

Actually, I wish that I could transfer my diseases to ALL of you, and see if you ALL think that you should never drive again. It's not like I haven't been seeing doctors for 30 years and taken buckets of medications in an attempt to control this. Should a diabetic never be allowed to drive because they just MIGHT go into diabetic coma? Should someone with high blood pressure not be allowed to drive because they might have a stroke?

Think about the TRUE implications of what you are saying.

I did not lose consciousness, and put exactly ZERO number of people at risk. If it came down to endangering someone else or crapping in my pants, I'd crap in my pants. Sorry if none of you can discern the difference between turning into a deserted automotive repair shop on a completely deserted street in order to get home before I crapped my pants, and running a light into a crowd of pedestrians. The first endangers exactly NOBODY and hurts exactly NOBODY. And that is what I did (and did not even realize that making a LEGAL turn into a business and then another LEGAL turn out of the business somehow constituted an infraction. Sorry, NOT a lawyer. Why would that be intuitively obvious? And NOWHERE does it show up in the Florida driver's manual. NOW i know, but I didn't then. And sorry, cyjeff, NEVER said I "blew" through the business. I made a turn and then made another turn, making sure that no one was in the way on a completely deserted street. YOU, in particular, would make a FABULOUS ******* cop. Assume incorrect things, and then come down as hard as possible.

Have any of you crapped in your pants? If not, then I TOTALLY wish that lovely feeling and experience for ALL of you.

Oh, and Zigner and OHRoadwarrior, sorry that I have no crystal ball to tell me exactly when this might strike. I have used MANY Starbucks and the like when they were available. But, are you both unable to read? I specifically said that there was NO public bathroom closer to me at that point than my home. And the police precinct was NOT open for use (hah, hah, hah, OHRoadwarrior - TREMENDOUSLY funny) until the cop stopped me and then unlocked the door for me, graciously allowing me to TRY to find the bathroom in a COMPLETELY dark corridor (since, why would anyone with NO empathy actually turn on a light so that I could see where I was going)?

Again, you are using your own experiences to judge me. NONE of you have ulcerative colitis. I know, because then NONE of you would have written the things that you did.

And I didn't come onto this forum to ask for that. AT ALL. If you didn't want to give any helpful advice, you could have simply kept your useless opinions to yourself.

Honestly, most of you are EXACTLY like the cops. Why the **** are you even on the site? Most of you never even addressed my specific question, you just used this as a way to berate me and belittle me. JUST like the cops. demurringdude was the only one to at least give a little hint of a helpful suggestion. But even he couldn't help himself from attacking me a little.

Thanks for, oh, NOTHING.

Did you even read the responses?

Do you have a learning disability too?

 

[cyjeff]

Oh, so all of you advocate that ANY person with ANY chronic disease that EVER could possibly interfere with their functioning should not be allowed to drive.

I advocate that any person with a chronic disease which will cause themselves to drive dangerously not be allowed to drive.

I'm not sure that the Americans with Disabilities Act would necessarily agree with you.

Oh, so you are going to try to scare a legal website by mentioning the ADA? Really?

So, if I am legally blind, the ADA would allow me to drive because, well, I am disabled?

Of course not. If my condition makes driving dangerous, I cannot drive.

WE did not say your condition made you drive dangerously. We said you were driving dangerously... YOU said it was due to the condition.

Do all of you REALLY think that ALL of those people with the disabled signs have the reflexes of someone without those disabilities??? But, according to you, they shouldn't be allowed to drive because they would pose a danger because they don't have the reflexes to respond to an acute situation the same as the rest of us (and, BTW, I'd put my reflexes up against ANY of you).

You ALL would be FABULOUS unempathetic police personnel.

Oh please.... just stop.

There is not a medical condition in the WORLD that allows you to ignore traffic laws at your discretion.

You are demanding that right. It doesn't exist.

Further, there was, by your own story, a public police station ACROSS the street from the closed store you decided to blow through. Why not use the bathroom in the public building?

They have them there, I assure you.

Oh, and especially to cyjeff, they may not be doctors, but if they just, oh, I don't know, happened to have ANY empathy, they might just be people, which they clearly are not.

Yeah, yeah. You should be allowed to drive in complete disregard of the traffic laws because you think you should.

Do you have a doctor's note that says, "Should be allowed to ignore traffic law" or was that just YOUR interpretation of your condition?

And when they tell me, well, we all have stomach upset at times, like their experience AT ALL coincides with mine, I SO wish that I could somehow transfer MY diseases to them, full-time, full-on. I would be much amused by how they would then feel about the whole thing. According to you all, they would then have to give up their jobs and stay at home, 24 hours a day.

What a hypocrite. You feel comfortable in telling me that I have no compassion while wishing a disease on people that didn't allow you to break the law simply upon your word that you had a disease that, in your opinion, allows you to break the law.

Do you have ANY idea how often police officers hear that? Especially across the street from a police station with public bathrooms in it?

I know that this will strain all of your limited cognitive abilities, but try to think about that for a second.

I know it is a strain on your intelligence, but think about this. It is not the officer's job to determine your innocence or guilt. That would be the job of the court.

If you go into court with this crap (pun intended), you will walk out without a license.

Again, you seem to think you have rights to break the law and endanger other drivers because they aren't moving fast enough for you... the law says that NO ONE has that right.

Actually, I wish that I could transfer my diseases to ALL of you, and see if you ALL think that you should never drive again.

There's all that compassion again. My, what a joy you are.

It's not like I haven't been seeing doctors for 30 years and taken buckets of medications in an attempt to control this. Should a diabetic never be allowed to drive because they just MIGHT go into diabetic coma? Should someone with high blood pressure not be allowed to drive because they might have a stroke?

If they have a condition which can reasonably cause them to drive dangerously, YES.

There are several medical conditions that may restrict driving. I have never heard of ANYONE demand the right to ignore traffic control devices and speed through parking lots.

What if there had been a pedestrian crossing either road? Would that person's safety have been an acceptable casualty of your need?

Think about the TRUE implications of what you are saying.

You too. PLEASE go into court and tell the nice judge that you should be allowed to ignore any traffic control device you wish whenever you think you need to.

I recommend having someone else there to drive you home.

I did not lose consciousness, and put exactly ZERO number of people at risk.

This time.

If it came down to endangering someone else or crapping in my pants, I'd crap in my pants.

This time.

Sorry if none of you can discern the difference between turning into a deserted automotive repair shop on a completely deserted street in order to get home before I crapped my pants, and running a light into a crowd of pedestrians.

Oh, so you took the time to open your window, listen for people, call out to make sure there was no one there out of sight and THEN speed through the parking lot?

Or were you just hoping? Maybe using the force?

The first endangers exactly NOBODY and hurts exactly NOBODY.

You ran a stop sign. People get into accidents doing that every day.

And that is what I did (and did not even realize that making a LEGAL turn into a business and then another LEGAL turn out of the business somehow constituted an infraction. Sorry, NOT a lawyer.

Or, apparently, a very good driver. That is covered in the statutes, you know. If you aren't going to read it, you can still be held responsible for it.

Why would that be intuitively obvious? And NOWHERE does it show up in the Florida driver's manual.

Now you are just being intentionally dense. Are you saying you honestly don't see a safety issue in people avoiding traffic lights by speeding through private property?

NOW i know, but I didn't then. And sorry, cyjeff, NEVER said I "blew" through the business. I made a turn and then made another turn, making sure that no one was in the way on a completely deserted street. YOU, in particular, would make a FABULOUS ******* cop. Assume incorrect things, and then come down as hard as possible.

I wasn't the one that thought the traffic laws didn't apply to me.

Have any of you crapped in your pants? If not, then I TOTALLY wish that lovely feeling and experience for ALL of you.

Again, that does NOT give you carte blanche to ignore traffic law. Given your options, you should have crapped your pants... or, better, stopped to go to the bathroom at that police station right THERE.

Oh, and Zigner and OHRoadwarrior, sorry that I have no crystal ball to tell me exactly when this might strike. I have used MANY Starbucks and the like when they were available. But, are you both unable to read? I specifically said that there was NO public bathroom closer to me at that point than my home. And the police precinct was NOT open for use (hah, hah, hah, OHRoadwarrior - TREMENDOUSLY funny) until the cop stopped me and then unlocked the door for me, graciously allowing me to TRY to find the bathroom in a COMPLETELY dark corridor (since, why would anyone with NO empathy actually turn on a light so that I could see where I was going)?

Now who is assuming? You walked in, asked and they denied you? Really? Ever?

You were operating your car in a consistently dangerous manner because YOU thought you had a really good reason...

Again, you are using your own experiences to judge me. NONE of you have ulcerative colitis. I know, because then NONE of you would have written the things that you did.

Again, your disease does not give you the right to ignore traffic law. I don't understand why that is so very difficult for you to believe.

I recommend the wearing of adult diapers during your commute to prevent your condition from encouraging your previous behavior.

In fact, why weren't you wearing an adult diaper? Wouldn't that have solved EVERYTHING?

And I didn't come onto this forum to ask for that. AT ALL. If you didn't want to give any helpful advice, you could have simply kept your useless opinions to yourself.

Ah... so unless we all said, "You have every right to ignore every traffic law you want, Puddin'" we aren't worth your time?

Boy, are you gonna HATE court.

Honestly, most of you are EXACTLY like the cops. Why the **** are you even on the site? Most of you never even addressed my specific question, you just used this as a way to berate me and belittle me. JUST like the cops. demurringdude was the only one to at least give a little hint of a helpful suggestion. But even he couldn't help himself from attacking me a little.

Because I see you as exactly the worst kind of driver. One that is perfectly willing to endanger everyone else on the road if you believe you have an excellent reason for doing so.

Today, it is your medical condition. Tomorrow, it will be that Survivor is starting in 10 minutes.

And you get all upset when the rules for everyone also apply to you.

Read the ADA VERY carefully. Find the section that says that your condition allows unreasonable or illegal concessions... then, link it to the section that says the concessions must allow you to endanger other people if necessary.

Print those out. Bring them to court. The judge will want to see them.

Thanks for, oh, NOTHING.

You are welcome. Drive safely.

 

[asiny]

Oh, so all of you advocate that ANY person with ANY chronic disease that EVER could possibly interfere with their functioning should not be allowed to drive.

I'm not sure that the Americans with Disabilities Act would necessarily agree with you. Do all of you REALLY think that ALL of those people with the disabled signs have the reflexes of someone without those disabilities???

So you took the time to read up on the ADA laws.

Sorry if none of you can discern the difference between turning into a deserted automotive repair shop on a completely deserted street in order to get home before I crapped my pants, and running a light into a crowd of pedestrians. The first endangers exactly NOBODY and hurts exactly NOBODY. And that is what I did (and did not even realize that making a LEGAL turn into a business and then another LEGAL turn out of the business somehow constituted an infraction. Sorry, NOT a lawyer. Why would that be intuitively obvious? And NOWHERE does it show up in the Florida driver's manual.

From PAGE 2 of the Florida Driver's Manual- I've highlighted the parts where you are expected to read up on the laws from a manual that 'condenses and paraphrases' POINTs of law.. not the laws themselves.

Disclaimer
The Florida Driver's Handbook covers many condensed and paraphrased points of Florida's laws and provides safety advice not
covered in the laws. The handbook is not a legal authority and should not be used in a court of law. The Florida Driver's Handbook
is printed in volume and copies already purchased will not reflect any changes made by Legislature regarding fees or laws passed
after the revision date.
Remember Driving Is A Privilege And Not A Right. Protect Yourself And Others By Knowing The Laws And Driving Safely.

Bottom line- if your illness would cause you to drive dangerously, and perform illegal manouvers then yes, you should not be behind the wheel of a car.

 

[cyjeff]

You bring up a good point...

This is a completely deserted street... with a car you had to pull out in front of and not one but two police cars on it.

Maybe deserted doesn't mean what you think it means.....

Oh, and like the traffic on the street would have changed your driving behavior whatsoever.

 

[justalayman]

actually, the officers did show sympathy for your condition and situation. They allowed you to go into the precinct and use the restroom before writing the citations. If they had no sympathy for you, they would have require you set right there in your car while they wrote the tickets.

Then, you admit to violating several laws, knowingly and intentionally. While you might get a sympathetic judge to reduce penalties or even drop the charges, I wouldn't expect it. You are well aware of your situation as shown by your route planning. Along with planning that route, you should also have located restrooms along the way you could use should you have a situation that called for the immediate need.

If you have an Iphone, there's an app for that.

 

[cyjeff]

actually, the officers did show sympathy for your condition and situation. They allowed you to go into the precinct and use the restroom before writing the citations. If they had no sympathy for you, they would have require you set right there in your car while they wrote the tickets.

Then, you admit to violating several laws, knowingly and intentionally. While you might get a sympathetic judge to reduce penalties or even drop the charges, I wouldn't expect it. You are well aware of your situation as shown by your route planning. Along with planning that route, you should also have located restrooms along the way you could use should you have a situation that called for the immediate need.

If you have an Iphone, there's an app for that.

Or, if the situation is deteriorating, wear an adult diaper.

Much preferable to ignoring traffic laws.

 

[Free_Advice]

I once had SIX tickets issued at once. I wonder if that is a record lol. Found not guilty on all six.