Frustrated officer and a 20 something male in a coupe at 3am

[MachNumber8]

Careless Driving Citation Despite Obeying Traffic Laws

My question involves a traffic ticket from the state of: Oregon

Here's the background:

I went home from school for the weekend on October 15-16 for my best friends going away party. I left his house at 2:25am about a half an hour away from my parents house. I wasn't under the influence of anything. I'm a male in my 20's driving a (well kept/"shiny") blue 2008 Honda Accord Coupe. I'm a college student at a university 100 miles from my hometown and have little to no time to work because of course load. My parents are putting both my sister and I through school so needless to say family funds are very tight.

Here's what happened:

At 2:50am I was driving southbound on a "highway" in my home town. The speed limit varies from 45 mph to 30 mph. The stretch of road I was on is 30 mph. I approached a red traffic light where I was going to perform a left hand turn to go east. I turned on my left hand turn signal and got into the left hand turn lane. Other than a van that had passed me about a minute earlier, I was the only car on the road. I knew that at that time of night, if you slow down enough you can trip the sensor and the light will turn green without requiring you to stop. I slowed to about 15 mph and the light turned green. I took my foot off the brake and put it on the accelerator and made the turn at about 20 mph (5 mph less than the speed of the street I was turning onto). I realized once I made the turn I was going just a little too fast so I had to make the turn sharper than I wanted to. The combination of it being cold out, my speed, and the sharpness of the turn, just made my tires squeal. As soon as the nose of my car was facing the street I turned onto, I saw red and blue lights flash in my eyes and pull into my lane. I immediately put on my brakes and signaled to the officer I was going to pull over more. The officer approached my car and shouted, "Well that was idiotic, now wasn't it?!" I waited until the officer got to me and asked for my license, registration, and proof of insurance before I retrieved it (I know people reaching for things makes them nervous-rightly so might I add). I handed him my license and insurance but was having trouble locating my registration. I verbalized my thoughts and said, "Well that's my title- and that's another insurance card..." He replied with, "I didn't ask for either of those, I want your registration." I apologized and managed to locate it shortly thereafter. While I was retrieving my information another vehicle pulled up behind me- a Ford Expedition police vehicle. He said I that I ran a red light and that I turned too sharply and that, that was reckless driving. I sheepishly replied, "Sir, I know the light was green." He said, "It didn't look like it from where I was..." He also yelled back as he walked back to his car, "Oh... and where is your front license plate?!"

I sat and sulked in my seat for a good 5 or 6 minutes knowing my fate while he went back at the Expedition with the other officer. At this point I put all of my other items I removed from my glovebox back in their place. He came back to my car, and asked what I was reaching for. I explained I was merely putting my things away. He then scanned the interior of my car with his flashlight. Upon completion he asked me, "Do you know why I'm right here tonight?" "No, sir." I replied. He told me he was driving around looking for a drunken man involved in a bar fight who was wandering the downtown area and that he was "wasting (his) time" by having to pull me over. He then handed me my violation and information. He told me he wrote me up for failing to signal a turn as opposed to failure to obey a traffic signal, careless driving, and not displaying a front license plate. I told him that "friends" of mine had taken the license plate bolts and left only my plate on my hood and that I had tried to buy the correct parts earlier that week but that they didn't fit. As he walked back to his car he said perhaps it can be changed if I put it on.

Violations and base fines:
Careless Driving - $450
Failure to signal a turn - $190
Front license plate - $190
Total fines - $830

What should I do? My first court date is on Wednesday November 2- the same date and time as my business midterm. I'm down at school right now so I have to mail in my plea. I was told to include a note saying I'm in school and request a date right after the term. I believe I'm going to plead not guilty because I know with certainty that the light was green and I signaled my turn. Also, I don't feel like I was driving carelessly- at least not $450 worth of careless. As for the license plate I've already went to the Honda dealer and purchased new bolts and it's seated tightly on the front of my car.

Please help!

Very Respectfully,
Number8

 

[OHRoadwarrior]

You said he wrote you up for failing to signal a turn as opposed to all the other tickets. Which is it then?

 

[HighwayMan]

It would help if you cut out all the drama and stick to the facts. That novel was a bit much to read.

Contact the court as you were directed to do and you'll have your day like everyone else. You don't sound as if you can properly represent yourself - you may want to consider contacting an attorney.

 

[MachNumber8]

You said he wrote you up for failing to signal a turn as opposed to all the other tickets. Which is it then?

Roadwarrior- Sorry, you're right. I definitely didn't phrase that correctly. I meant to say he did failing to signal ONLY for the failing to obey a traffic light. I think I listed them on the bottom but I may be wrong.. so these are them.

Failing to Signal 190
No Front Plate 190
Careless Driving 450

It would help if you cut out all the drama and stick to the facts. That novel was a bit much to read.

Contact the court as you were directed to do and you'll have your day like everyone else. You don't sound as if you can properly represent yourself - you may want to consider contacting an attorney.

HighwayMan- The only reason I posted that much was to fully explain the situation to everyone here. I obviously wouldn't be that in depth in court. I suppose that was a good suggestion about contacting an attorney though..? I would consider it if funds weren't tight- like I said.

 

[You Are Guilty]

Also, I don't feel like I was driving carelessly- at least not $450 worth of careless.

So just how much worth of careless was your turn? $300? $200? $50?

And as a life lesson to others, squealing your tires directly in front of an officer when you are the only car on the road is never a good idea and might lead to tickets being issued.

 

[MachNumber8]

So just how much worth of careless was your turn? $300? $200? $50?

And as a life lesson to others, squealing your tires directly in front of an officer when you are the only car on the road is never a good idea and might lead to tickets being issued.

Sorry, I was being sarcastic. I don't feel as if it was careless at all. Someone told me this and pretty much sums up what I believe... "The tire squeal was incidental, and does not constitute careless driving. You did not endanger anyone if there was nobody present to endanger, nor would it be likely to endanger anyone if your tires merely squealed incidentally."

I also forgot to mention, there is an office building on the left corner of that intersection. Also, turning left from the highway (what I did) leads up a small hill. The cop crested the hill as I made the turn so I didn't see him.

 

[Silverplum]

Sorry, I was being sarcastic. I don't feel as if it was careless at all. Someone told me this and pretty much sums up what I believe... "The tire squeal was incidental, and does not constitute careless driving. You did not endanger anyone if there was nobody present to endanger, nor would it be likely to endanger anyone if your tires merely squealed incidentally."

I also forgot to mention, there is an office building on the left corner of that intersection. Also, turning left from the highway (what I did) leads up a small hill. The cop crested the hill as I made the turn so I didn't see him.

That makes the cop happy, when you can't see him/her. That's kinda the point, dude, not an excuse.

 

[HighwayMan]

Most of your post was irrelevant - and it would be either in court OR here. For some reason many people like to post these novels with all kinds of information that does not contribute to anyone's understanding of the situation. Verbal dialogue between you and the officer, your facial expressions and sulking during the stop, etc only confuse the situation and make it harder for anyone to help you. Many people wouldn't even attempt to wade through all of that.

I see this in court all the time and all it does is get the judges very annoyed.

 

[MachNumber8]

That makes the cop happy, when you can't see him/her. That's kinda the point, dude, not an excuse.

I feel like everyone is just trying to chastise my post instead of giving me advice on what to do and what to say. If you're going to criticize, do it constructively. Please give me something I can use.

Highwayman- I'm sorry you feel that way. This is the first time I've ever been in a situation like this so I figured it would be helpful, not harmful to include extra information- on a forum at least.

Silverplum- I didn't say it was an excuse. Someone mentioned it was dumb to make a turn like that in front of a cop. I was replying to them when I said I didn't know he was there. We all know everyone becomes "the worlds best driver" when they know a police car is there... I know turning at 20 mph wouldn't be considered the best driving, but I don't think it was careless.

Be truthful, have you else ever made a turn at 20 mph? It's highly likely that just about everyone here has. When you did it, did you consider it careless when you made a turn at that speed?

I have to be honest though, I do see the situation the officers perspective. He see's a bright blue coupe make a turn close to the speed limit at 3 am. I would have stopped me too- but only to observe and find out what I was doing.

This is what I want help with... I got a ticket for a violation I don't feel I committed. Him saying I ran a red light that I know I didn't run and then changing the violation and saying I didn't use my signal, which I also know I used. My alleged careless driving seems to be subjective to him. In Oregon the offense of careless driving is... "if the person drives any vehicle upon a highway or other premises described in this section in a manner that endangers or would be likely to endanger any person or property." My car didn't go sideways or go out of my control (it's pretty tough to make a FWD car go sideways), there was no person or other vehicle around to endanger, I was a safe distance from the curb other lane, etc.

Please, constructive. I came here for assistance. If something is unclear just let me know and I'll do my best to clarify.

Thank you everyone

 

[Silverplum]

Bummer you didn't enjoy the free advice.

I feel like everyone is just trying to chastise my post instead of giving me advice on what to do and what to say. If you're going to criticize, do it constructively. Please give me something I can use.

Highwayman- I'm sorry you feel that way. This is the first time I've ever been in a situation like this so I figured it would be helpful, not harmful to include extra information- on a forum at least.

Silverplum- I didn't say it was an excuse. Someone mentioned it was dumb to make a turn like that in front of a cop. I was replying to them when I said I didn't know he was there. We all know everyone becomes "the worlds best driver" when they know a police car is there... I know turning at 20 mph wouldn't be considered the best driving, but I don't think it was careless.

Be truthful, have you else ever made a turn at 20 mph? It's highly likely that just about everyone here has. When you did it, did you consider it careless when you made a turn at that speed?

I have to be honest though, I do see the situation the officers perspective. He see's a bright blue coupe make a turn close to the speed limit at 3 am. I would have stopped me too- but only to observe and find out what I was doing.

This is what I want help with... I got a ticket for a violation I don't feel I committed. Him saying I ran a red light that I know I didn't run and then changing the violation and saying I didn't use my signal, which I also know I used. My alleged careless driving seems to be subjective to him. In Oregon the offense of careless driving is... "if the person drives any vehicle upon a highway or other premises described in this section in a manner that endangers or would be likely to endanger any person or property." My car didn't go sideways or go out of my control (it's pretty tough to make a FWD car go sideways), there was no person or other vehicle around to endanger, I was a safe distance from the curb other lane, etc.

Please, constructive. I came here for assistance. If something is unclear just let me know and I'll do my best to clarify.

Thank you everyone

 

[asiny]

This is what I want help with... I got a ticket for a violation I don't feel I committed. Him saying I ran a red light that I know I didn't run and then changing the violation and saying I didn't use my signal, which I also know I used. My alleged careless driving seems to be subjective to him.

And that is the one that matters. As has been discussed across many threads, the LEO has no benefit if you get convicted or not. There is no extra cash in his paycheque from your fines, there is no award for giving out a ticket. The LEO is a neutral observer who has been charged with determining what, at the moment he has reason to believe, a violation is.
If you goto court and after the LEO gives his statement of what he witnessed your vehicle do (through sight or sound), your response cannot be "Say's you."

In Oregon the offense of careless driving is... "if the person drives any vehicle upon a highway or other premises described in this section in a manner that endangers or would be likely to endanger any person or property." My car didn't go sideways or go out of my control (it's pretty tough to make a FWD car go sideways), there was no person or other vehicle around to endanger, I was a safe distance from the curb other lane, etc.

Important note: YOU would be the PERSON or PROPERTY- your interpretation and use of the term 'other' is wrong (or wherever you got that from). It does not mean if you endanger someone outside your car, or someone else's car or property- it includes YOU and YOUR PROPERTY.
When a car tire squeals- and it must have been a good noise for a cop to hear these squeals over the crest of a hill- it was the LEOs opinion that you were operating your car in a careless manner to the point you could have lost control of it. Whether you lost control or not is neither here nor there... that fact that the LEO believes you handled it unsafely warrants his issuance of a citation.
If you want to argue:

Someone told me this and pretty much sums up what I believe... "The tire squeal was incidental, and does not constitute careless driving. You did not endanger anyone if there was nobody present to endanger, nor would it be likely to endanger anyone if your tires merely squealed incidentally."

or;

The combination of it being cold out, my speed, and the sharpness of the turn, just made my tires squeal.

Be sure they are experts in the automotive industry and field in order to contradict the LEOs statement.. and that they can provide testimony to make the judge consider. Oh, and that they can accompany you to court on the court date you are looking to argue all of this on.