going under posted speed limit

[ewaldrop]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? CA

Hi there. Here is my situation. I was driving thru Roseville CA and was cited for driving to slow.

The situation is as follows. I was driving in the lane next to the road work being performed (New asphalt was being laid) There were cones present. The posted limit is 45 MPH I was doing 20-25.

I slowed from 40 due to a construction vehicle backing up (front end loader) with part of the vehicle (rear scraper) coming really close to the cones. This is all less than 100ft from a stop light. I slowed due to the caution of the equipment backing up.

After slowing I started to speed up. As I took my attention away from the construction vehicle the traffic in front of me came to a stop. I hit my breaks but was unable to stop and hit the people in front of me.

We pulled off the main road and into a parking lot. The officer shows up and asks the normal questions and asked me how fast I thought I was going just before the accident. I told her 20-25 because of the construction going on.

A few days later I got a citation stating that I was going slower that what was safe. I then got a notice from placer county stating I was doing 26 mph over the speed limit. The "Complaint" I received stated I was doing 20 in a 45.

Any advice on this?

[justalayman]

Originally Posted by ewaldrop

Any advice on this?

Hang on for a few other folks (hopefully cdwjava catches this). It sounds like a bogus ticket to me but he can tell you the proper way to deal with this with the least trouble.

I do believe there should be a ticket but obviously not for lack of speed.

[Jim_bo]

How bizarre...


Please, provide details. Did an officer speak with you at the accident? What did he say? What did you say? Did he not ticket you then? How did he know where to send the ticket? Exactly what were you ticketed for (section of the Vehicle Code i.e. VC22350)? Any other details?

[ewaldrop]

The ticket was for VC22350.

I was going the flow of traffic just before the construction vehicle backed so close to the traffic lane. I slowed about 5 mph slower than the flow at this point.

The officer was not present until after the accident. The only witnesses were those involved in the accident. The officer showed up about 20 min after the accident and asked me what speed I was driving. I said I don't know but it seemed around 20-25mph. I told her that I had slowed due to the construction as there were people and vehicles really close to the line.

I got the ticket in the mail by Roseville PD. It was written by the lady officer that showed up at the scene. In the signature area it states "Complaint".

The officer that took the report did very little talking. She just asked me if I could describe what happened.

I told her that I was driving and had slowed for the construction. Then as I started to speed up there was a car 3 cars ahead of me that decided to make a last min right turn. I did not see a signal. The suburban behind that person tried really had to stop and almost hit the black car making the turn. The lady in front of me then slammed on her breaks and had missed them by only a foot or two. She was driving a Nissan Sentra and I was driving a 2000 F150 4x4. I told the officer that she was able to stop a lot faster than I could ever stop. I tried to miss her but with us still being in the construction area and people near by and traffic on my right I had no other path but to hit her.

After that she asked me how fast I was going. This is when I said I didn't know but that I was going the flow of traffic just before the construction vehicle backed so close to the traffic lane. I slowed about 5 mph slower than the flow at this point.

The ticket does state that it was in a construction zone and that the officer was not present.

This is the first ticket I have had in 20 years and the 2nd accident I have been in. The last one was 24 years ago when I was 16. Only had my license 3 days and spun out and hit a curb, no other vehicles around or involved.

I hope this helps.

Thanks in advance for all the advice.

[FlyingRon]

22350 is the basic speed law. No person shall drive a vehicle upon a highway at a speed greater than is reasonable or prudent having due regard for weather, visibility, the traffic on, and the surface and width of, the highway, and in no event at a speed which endangers the safety of persons or property.


The fact that you plowed into the back of other cars in the middle of a construction zone is pretty damning evidence to that fact.

[poncho]

Originally Posted by FlyingRon

22350 is the basic speed law. No person shall drive a vehicle upon a highway at a speed greater than is reasonable or prudent having due regard for weather, visibility, the traffic on, and the surface and width of, the highway, and in no event at a speed which endangers the safety of persons or property.


The fact that you plowed into the back of other cars in the middle of a construction zone is pretty damning evidence to that fact.

CA VC also has a simular statute that covers driving slow and creating the same endangering the safety of persons or property. Worded a little different. I'll look it up if need be.

[FlyingRon]

Originally Posted by poncho

CA VC also has a simular statute that covers driving slow and creating the same endangering the safety of persons or property. Worded a little different. I'll look it up if need be.

That's not what he was charged with. But what you're looking for is VC 22400

. (a) No person shall drive upon a highway at such a slow speed as to impede or block the normal and reasonable movement of traffic, unless the reduced speed is necessary for safe operation, because of a grade, or in compliance with law.

No person shall bring a vehicle to a complete stop upon a highway so as to impede or block the normal and reasonable movement of traffic unless the stop is necessary for safe operation or in compliance with law.

[poncho]

Originally Posted by FlyingRon

That's not what he was charged with. But what you're looking for is VC 22400

. (a) No person shall drive upon a highway at such a slow speed as to impede or block the normal and reasonable movement of traffic, unless the reduced speed is necessary for safe operation, because of a grade, or in compliance with law.

No person shall bring a vehicle to a complete stop upon a highway so as to impede or block the normal and reasonable movement of traffic unless the stop is necessary for safe operation or in compliance with law.

I read the first post from OP:

was cited for driving to slow

Skipped most of the not relevant information and used , cited for slow and the accident. To determine in personnel opinion that is not legal advice. Pretty tough fight with this ticket.

[Jim_bo]

Ewaldrop,

This is likely a case where an accident occurs and the cop is required to write a ticket to someone for something. When in doubt... write it for 22350. Personally, I think it is a huge leap to suggest that an accident automatically proves you were driving too fast for conditions. There could be other violations you may be guilty of (i.e. driving too closely), but a ticket of 22350 places the burden of proof on the prosecution to show that your speed did in fact cause a danger to persons or property. The mere existence of an accident isn't enough to do that. Afterall, you could have had a similare accident driving 5 mph. The prosecution would have to prove a cause-and-effect relationship between your speed and the accident. If you question him well, I don't think he can do that.

[ewaldrop]

I guess my question came from 2 things.

1. I was cited by the officer for CA VC 22350 (basic speed law).
"Unsafe Speed for Condition" w/ aprox speed of 20mph and limit of 45...safe 0.

2. Placer Court systems states CA VC 22350 "Exceeded Basic Speed Limit".

I am more trying to figure out the whole charges more than anything.

Again its been many many years since I have had to deal with this.

I agree I was wrong as I hit the person in front of me. I am not arguing that one bit and Take FULL RESPONSIBILITY.

I am just trying to figure out the best option I have.

From what it looks like it's to pay the fine and do traffic school.

Thanks again for the advice and info!

[CdwJava]

Originally Posted by ewaldrop

1. I was cited by the officer for CA VC 22350 (basic speed law).
"Unsafe Speed for Condition" w/ aprox speed of 20mph and limit of 45...safe 0.

If I get this correct, the citation was issued as a result of a determination of fault in the collision report. You were assigned with the PCF (Primary Collision Factor( found in the upper left corner of page 2 of the collision report, and a specially trained officer issued a citation for that fact.

There are generally two violations for a rear end collision - unsafe speed for conditions, and, following too closely. if you rear end stopped traffic, the PCF will almost always be the unsafe speed. Given the stopped traffic, the only safe speed would have been "0".

2. Placer Court systems states CA VC 22350 "Exceeded Basic Speed Limit".

Because the courts likely have one definition for the code section. The clerk enters "22350" into the computer and it spits out the default definition "Exceeded Basic Speed Limit". My county's computer says, "Basic Speed Law" ... court systems vary. It's the code that matters, not the description.

I am just trying to figure out the best option I have.

From what it looks like it's to pay the fine and do traffic school.

That's probably the case.

But, because of potential insurance or civil suit issues over damages or injury claims, you may want to consult an attorney.

- Carl

[poncho]

Originally Posted by ewaldrop

I guess my question came from 2 things.
1. I was cited by the officer for CA VC 22350 (basic speed law).
"Unsafe Speed for Condition" w/ aprox speed of 20mph and limit of 45...safe 0.

Speed limits in most states are an assumption most reasonable people make. Sort of false advertising based on outdated information the state's have forgot to update. They make it up with either traffic school or some type of deferral program. That keeps that ticket off your driving record. Of course the courts charge a hush fee to not notify the DMV.

2. Placer Court systems states CA VC 22350 "Exceeded Basic Speed Limit".

States conveniently forget mentioning that by federal law binding on domestic, they must set a minimum speed limit as well. See: nhtsa.dot.gov

I agree I was wrong as I hit the person in front of me. I am not arguing that one bit and Take FULL RESPONSIBILITY.

Personally I think citing gives two things for Police. They showed up and took action. Second consider it a fee for the Police writing their reports, etcetera. The state knows the responsible people will pay and that includes keeping that ticket off your record and viewable when you get new insurance.

I am just trying to figure out the best option I have.

From what it looks like it's to pay the fine and do traffic school.

Thanks again for the advice and info!

Most reasonable people come to the same conclusion.

[Zigner]

Originally Posted by CdwJava

Because the courts likely have one definition for the code section. The clerk enters "22350" into the computer and it spits out the default definition "Exceeded Basic Speed Limit". My county's computer says, "Basic Speed Law" ... court systems vary. It's the code that matters, not the description.

I don't think that even the two descriptions are mutually exclusive. Our OP DID "exceed" the basic speed limit. (Not meant to sound like an argument Carl )

[poncho]

Forgot a third reason I think Police give citations. The "injured" are less likely to file a frivolous civil injury claim against you and your insurance company. So in away the Police are doing you a favor in giving you a ticket.

[CdwJava]

Originally Posted by poncho

Speed limits in most states are an assumption most reasonable people make. Sort of false advertising based on outdated information the state's have forgot to update.

I don't know about other states, but here they have to be supported by a speed survey. And to enforce speed limits, the survey has to be updated every five years with some extensions to 7 years. I suspect that even under federal rules speed limits are not permitted to be random guesses.

They make it up with either traffic school or some type of deferral program. That keeps that ticket off your driving record. Of course the courts charge a hush fee to not notify the DMV.

Friend, the DMV IS notified ... they just do not apply a point if the traffic school is successfully completed.

States conveniently forget mentioning that by federal law binding on domestic, they must set a minimum speed limit as well. See: nhtsa.dot.gov

We have no direct minimum speed limit - only violations for impeding traffic or traveling at an unsafe speed.

Personally I think citing gives two things for Police. They showed up and took action.

The report did that. The citation is not required, but often is issued anyway.

Second consider it a fee for the Police writing their reports, etcetera.

The costs associated with time spent writing the report and then having another officer issues the citation greatly exceeded the $4.75 the agency would have received from the citation.

And issuing a citation to protect someone from civil suit never enters into the equation.

- Carl