Hidden stop sign help...

[antiquedriver]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? pennsylvania

When a stop sign is not immediately covered but cannot be seen 10 feet or more down the street does a person automatically break the law if you dont stop? My stop sign in question did not have branches from a tree covering the sign, however about 10 feet down the street a tree hangs over the street totally obscuring the sign even standing in the opposite side of the road you cannot see the sign. I had no expectation that the sign would be there as im not from the immediate area. I did however slow down to turn left onto a cross street at that intersection so my attention was in the turning left onto a cross street. How clear does the sign have to be if I was driving 5 mph 10 feet notice might have worked but the speed limit was 35mph myself and my wife never saw the sign. Do I have any defense?

p.s. driving record spotless no violations of any kind or warnings for 10 or more years.

 

[randolph76]

Do you have photographs that would show this?

 

[Zigner]

Were there markings on the ground?

 

[antiquedriver]

Do you have photographs that would show this?

I do, I have about 4 showing various distances the tree branch in question is about 10 feet in front of the tree. When I was tought to drive you always looked down the street a good 50 ft, while I dont ignore the things in front of my car like balls that come out of knowwhere. I tend to drive more defensively now more than ever. I simply didnt see the sign. This township I was in Lower Paxton in Dauphin County Pennsylvania, they are known for having "safety zones" just about everywhere where there are people who might break the laws. Typically this township will have a "safety zone" at the bottom of a long hill or wherever they can catch or earn the most revenue. They rarely give out a warning, which im told goes against their idea of collecting revenue. They will agressively chase after people often times cutting off other drivers. Their officers will make illegal U turns cutting off traffic just to stop people for not wearing their seatbelts. This township receives 10% of all court revenue. For fines they issue. The fine for failure to stop is $25 yet the fees are $95. They also have a real horrendious crimes solved record. Criminals and bank robbers are in control because they know they can get away with the crime, their secret just dont break any traffic laws. Our township which has a different police force is easier on traffic violations we have less accidents and lower crime because the police go after armed robbers and home invasions.

 

[antiquedriver]

Were there markings on the ground?

No markings on the road. It was a three way stop area with 3 roads. Lots of trees, a single lane with no pull off area. Grass area runs right up to the roadway no stone buffer area. Its a residential area. When I went back to find the stop sign and was sitting at the stop sign the cop who wrote the ticket was driving the other way and stopped in the middle of the road rolled down his window and said " See clearly marked stop sign!" To me that statement was a conclusion. So I guess he felt he should be the judge in the case also.

 

[OHRoadwarrior]

You should have seen the sign back from the opposing direction and inferred its location in your direction, slowing to verify. This will probably be the officers partial response.

 

[antiquedriver]

You should have seen the sign back from the opposing direction and inferred its location in your direction, slowing to verify. This will probably be the officers partial response.

I sincerely hope you dont drive like that! Many residential 3 and 4 way intersections dont have 3 and 4 way stops. Typically the main road like the one I was on doesnt stop and only the side streets that go into a housing area have to stop. But to answer your question you cannot see the opposing stop sign either its also covered by tree follage. Tree branches hang over the street on both sides of the road.

 

[Zigner]

I sincerely hope you dont drive like that! Many residential 3 and 4 way intersections dont have 3 and 4 way stops.

Not assuming there is no stop sign in your direction when there is one in the opposing direction is a bad thing? I call that smart driving. It's better to assume there is one and have there not be one.

 

[Free_Advice]

You should have seen the sign back from the opposing direction and inferred its location in your direction, slowing to verify. This will probably be the officers partial response.

It would be my advice NOT TO ASK THE OFFICER questions about visibility .. you know what his answer would be "there were no obstructions, etc"..asking the officer questions relating to this defense will not help the defendant.

Instead, present this during your side of the defense. It is an affirmative defense anyway, the OP must prove it. And prepare for trial, saying that you could see the sign at 10 ft may kill this defense.

The OP could also check and see if the sign is posted properly, if state laws were followed in its erection.

You should ask the officer about his checking your driving record.

Drivers should be careful what you ask cops during cross; I have seen many cases where I thought the defendant was going to win the case and then they ask 1 more question that allows the cop to go into details that were not previously disclosed and need to be disclosed & they get a conviction.

Nobody should really care about going through stop signs, speeding etc anyway. If no one is hurt, who cares? In most states its a civil infraction, not criminal anyway. So no harm = no foul DUIs are criminal in most states so that is a different subject.

 

[Zigner]

Nobody should really care about going through stop signs, speeding etc anyway. If no one is hurt, who cares?

This is asinine. Going through stop signs, speeding, etc. can CAUSE people to be hurt. You seem to think that everybody should be allowed to do it unless they hurt somebody. That is ridiculous.

 

[OHRoadwarrior]

I sincerely hope you dont drive like that!

Remember those words if you ever get creamed at an intersection under those circumstances. Anyone that disregards a potential warning indicator like that, is driving aggressively. Yes, this means YOU. Whenever you approach an intersection, you should utilize all visual ques, to ascertain the nature of obstacles and signage present. I did not say stop, I said look for an indicator, ie.. an opposing sign. You should also look for other vehicles not observing posted signage, that might hit your vehicle. You for example. Is it worth killing someone over an obscured or stolen sign?

 

[Zigner]

You should also look for other vehicles not observing posted signage, that might hit your vehicle.

A good example happened to me this morning (signal, not stop sign.) I stopped at a red light. The light turned green. Instead of mashing the gas, I actually LOOKED down the street...there was a car about 4 car lengths away from the intersection who was still going full speed. I knew he could never stop for the red, so I simply waited as he blew through the red light in front of me. One must attempt to be aware of EVERYTHING going on around them.

 

[Free_Advice]

This is asinine. Going through stop signs, speeding, etc. can CAUSE people to be hurt. You seem to think that everybody should be allowed to do it unless they hurt somebody. That is ridiculous.

Its not ridiculous ... in civil cases and injury must actually have occurred ...

Many things can be the cause of people being injured but until an injury actually occurs there is no cause of action.

If someone goes through a stop sign (rolling stop, turn on red etc) then who cares?

If states want to treat infractions like crimes then they should do so. Not treat us like criminals w/o having criminal due process rights.

+ having a drivers license should not be required at all ; we have a RIGHT to travel, driving is not a privilege. A DL is only for commercial purposes, not for individuals traveling.

Many in NH have no licenses, insurance etc...

 

[Zigner]

+ having a drivers license should not be required at all ; we have a RIGHT to travel, driving is not a privilege. A DL is only for commercial purposes, not for individuals traveling.

Oh BROTHER!

You have a right to travel...so hop out of your car and hoof-it. Idiot.

 

[asiny]

Many in NH have no licenses, insurance etc...

1) Note to self - don't drive in NH
2) Move to NH to save on license, insurance, etc..
3) Did Free_Advice realise the OP is in PA and NH law may not apply?