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  1. #1
    spinoki is offline Junior Member
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    how to fight a traffic camera ticket?

    What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? California

    I just received a citation of VC 21453A (Vehicle Stop/Limit Line) when I failed to come to a complete stop before turning right on a red light. The violation was captured/issued by a traffic camera. It should be noted that I was turning right into a parking area (train station) and there were not oncoming traffic.

    The fine for this violation is $440! Is this excessive? I mean it not as if I ran through an intersection. I have seen fines for speeding tickets there are far less expensive and that's a much more dangerous violation with proven consequences. It's almost like traffic cameras are designed to increase revenue for the county instead of reducing traffic accidents.

    Regardless, what are my options? Should I pleat guilty and hope the judge will be reasonable and reduce my fine? Should I hire a professional to fight the ticket? Should I represent myself?
  2. #2
    I_Got_Banned is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by spinoki View Post
    I just received a citation of VC 21453A (Vehicle Stop/Limit Line) when I failed to come to a complete stop before turning right on a red light.
    So you rolled through a red light without making a full stop at or just before crossing the limit line!

    Quote Originally Posted by spinoki View Post
    The violation was captured/issued by a traffic camera.
    Does the Citation say "Do Not Contact The Court"?

    Quote Originally Posted by spinoki View Post
    It should be noted that I was turning right into a parking area (train station)
    But you rolled through a red light without making a full stop at or just before crossing the limit line!

    Quote Originally Posted by spinoki View Post
    and there were not oncoming traffic.
    Still... You rolled through a red light without making a full stop at or just before crossing the limit line!

    Quote Originally Posted by spinoki View Post
    The fine for this violation is $440! Is this excessive?
    Actually, that sounds about right. I've seen them at $435 but you must live in a county where the penalty assessments are higher by $5.

    Quote Originally Posted by spinoki View Post
    I mean it not as if I ran through an intersection.
    Actually, you did, you just happened to make a turn which is just as much a violation as running through the intersection.

    Quote Originally Posted by spinoki View Post
    I have seen fines for speeding tickets there are far less expensive and that's a much more dangerous violation with proven consequences.
    I haven't seen any statistics that support that.

    Quote Originally Posted by spinoki View Post
    It's almost like traffic cameras are designed to increase revenue for the county instead of reducing traffic accidents.
    Actually, statistics show that red light traffic camera's increase compliance by 10 to 1, reduce accidents by close to that same ratio, and produce a fraction of the revenue that is collected from red light cameras issued by an actual officer.

    Quote Originally Posted by spinoki View Post
    Should I pleat guilty and hope the judge will be reasonable and reduce my fine?
    Yes, you can plead guilty, that might happen although I haven't heard a good reason that might convince a judge that a fine reduction is justified.

    Quote Originally Posted by spinoki View Post
    Should I hire a professional to fight the ticket?
    Chances are, it might cost you more than the $440 but that is an option. Depending upon your current insurance premium rate, it might be a consideration if you suspect that a conviction might increase your rates by a lot.
    Quote Originally Posted by spinoki View Post
    Should I represent myself?
    You can do that too... But I am still wondering what your defense might be!!!

    You also have the option of traffic school (assuming you have a non-commercial license), which will cost you an additional $49 but the citation is dismissed upon completion.

    Or you can plead guilty, pay the fine and put it all behind you.
  3. #3
    reactive is offline Member
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    I don't see much hope of getting the ticket dismissed or the fine reduced, although a judge ought to have discretion, since an incomplete stop on a right turn is less dangerous than driving straight through a red light.

    $440 is excessive to me and probably many other people, and there has been public backlash against red light cameras, which some believe trade collisions in the intersection for rear-end collisions. Get involved if you wish.
    [url]http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=petition+red+light+camera+california&aq=f&oq=&aqi=[/url]

    Finally, yes, speeding surely causes far much more harm than incomplete stops and probably the running of red lights (if only because most people don't do that).
    [url]http://www.lawyershop.com/practice-areas/personal-injury/motor-vehicle-accidents/car-accidents/statistics/[/url]
    Last edited by reactive; 06-04-2009 at 12:15 PM.
  4. #4
    I_Got_Banned is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by reactive View Post
    which some believe trade collisions in the intersection for rear-end collisions.
    Most rear end collisions don't happen because of red light cameras. Rear end collisions happen because people do not allow themselves enough following distance when they are driving behind other cars in relation to the speed they are travelling.

    Quote Originally Posted by reactive View Post
    Finally, yes, speeding surely causes far much more harm than incomplete stops and probably the running of red lights (if only because most people don't do that).
    On a percentage basis, speeding does NOT cause far more harm than running red lights.

    And by the way, there is no distinction in the vehicle code between an "incomplete stop" and "running a red light". A "red light violation" is a "red light violation".

    And I say all this without clicking on any of the links you provided. If you want to prove a point, show me a statistic issued by the NHTSA instead of some hot shot lawyer trying to prove something or a petition signed by people who think they were unfairly cited when in fact, Cameras don't lie!!!
  5. #5
    reactive is offline Member
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    You want to be reported? You're arguing with me over claims I did not make. One that is relevant to the original post - there is no distinction in the vehicle code between an "incomplete stop" and "running a red light". A "red light violation" is a "red light violation" - um, right, but I was saying that a judge ought to have the discretion to differentiate re the fine. The other relevant twisting of my words is about petitions - I was suggesting he (or she) sign a petition banning or limiting red-light cameras, not to dispute tickets already issued. You lose when you comment on links you won't click.
  6. #6
    Zigner is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by reactive View Post
    You want to be reported? You're arguing with me over claims I did not make. One that is relevant to the original post - there is no distinction in the vehicle code between an "incomplete stop" and "running a red light". A "red light violation" is a "red light violation" - um, right, but I was saying that a judge ought to have the discretion to differentiate re the fine. The other relevant twisting of my words is about petitions - I was suggesting he (or she) sign a petition banning or limiting red-light cameras, not to dispute tickets already issued. You lose when you comment on links you won't click.
    Watch out IGB - he's gonna report you!!!
  7. #7
    I_Got_Banned is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by reactive View Post
    You want to be reported?
    Can you figure out how?

    Click on the Caution symbol on the far right of the post banner… That will open up a window where you can blabber for as long as you want.

    Go for it!!! ‘Cause frankly, I’m getting tired of your meaningless threats in each and every thread you post in… And not just to me… To everyone who you disagree with!

    Quote Originally Posted by reactive View Post
    You're arguing with me over claims I did not make.
    Blah, blah…. You’re still arguing the claims that you supposedly “didn’t make”.

    Quote Originally Posted by reactive View Post
    One that is relevant to the original post - there is no distinction in the vehicle code between an "incomplete stop" and "running a red light". A "red light violation" is a "red light violation" - um, right, but I was saying that a judge ought to have the discretion to differentiate re the fine.
    Read CVC Section 42001.15. It says:
    42001.15. Every person convicted of an infraction for a violation of subdivision (a) or (c) of Section 21453, subdivision (c) of Section 21454, or subdivision (a) of Section 21457 shall be punished by a fine of one hundred dollars ($100).

    Add the penalty assessments for the county where the OP was cited and you’ll come up with $445.

    That CVC section, makes it a “statutory fine”, which in turn, makes it a fine that judges cannot reduce…

    Looks like your claim is WRONG again!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by reactive View Post
    The other relevant twisting of my words is about petitions - I was suggesting he (or she) sign a petition banning or limiting red-light cameras, not to dispute tickets already issued.
    [LIST][*]1st, what benefit does that offer him for how to handle his existing citation? NONE![*]2nd, I made a comment that in my opinion, those petitions are usually started by bitter, angry, lifeless people (you know the type) who have nothing better to do except to complain about how they are right when they are clearly wrong.[*]3rd, this is a forum for opinions. If you can’t handle the criticism, and you obviously can’t, then I suggest you not post here.[/LIST]
    Quote Originally Posted by reactive View Post
    You lose when you comment on links you won't click.
    You lose even bigger when you have no clue what you're posting about!!!
  8. #8
    I_Got_Banned is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zigner View Post
    Watch out IGB - he's gonna report you!!!
    I've been waiting for him to start nagging as soon as he posted in this thread.

    Nothing new from Mr Over-reactive!!! Protector of the innocent!!!
  9. #9
    reactive is offline Member
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    No, it's only you two. And your day will come. I've already used the option.

    That CVC section, makes it a “statutory fine”, which in turn, makes it a fine that judges cannot reduce…

    Okay, assuming you're right, what makes you so sure that that applies to the entire amount and not just $100? Also, I never said I was sure he could get the fine reduced. My point is that the judge deserves to have discretion. After all, for the situation described above, a cop has discretion whether to issue a ticket instead of a warning.

    Now, if the original poster goes to court and the judge can see the videotape, it can't hurt to suggest that incomplete stops before right turns are rampant, that cops probably let some people off with warnings, and that someone with remorse and a good record (if applicable) deserves a reduction in the fine.

    If that fails, he (or she) probably would receive some satisfaction in seeing the law changed.
  10. #10
    shortles is offline Junior Member
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    beating a stop light camera ticket

    My husband beat a stop light camera ticket several years ago in San Francisco.
    He showed up to court and requested a trial. (At least at that time) the officer who signed the ticket is required to show up for the trial. He was prepared to argue that the photographs violated 4th amendment rights. The officer didn't show up so the case was dismissed.
  11. #11
    reactive is offline Member
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    Good to hear the story, but I wouldn't recommend that. Just looking around, I found all sorts of advice, including about lower fines for "rolling rights."
    [url=http://www.highwayrobbery.net/redlightcamsticket.htm#Handle]Fighting Your Ticket - Red Light Cameras in California[/url]

    Also, FYI
    [url]http://articles.latimes.com/p/2008/aug/16/local/me-redlight16[/url]
    Last edited by reactive; 06-04-2009 at 04:45 PM.
  12. #12
    I_Got_Banned is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by reactive View Post
    No, it's only you two.
    What does Zigner have to do with any of this???

    Quote Originally Posted by reactive View Post
    And your day will come.
    Is that a threat?

    It sounds to me like that is a threat... Your second one in this thread... Which makes it harassment... I call that a "hateful threat" too...

    That, by the way, in addition to you knowingly posting innacurate information, is against forum policy...

    Here, from the Terms and Conditions:

    You agree that you will NOT use the FreeAdvice Forum to post any knowingly false, defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, or threatening message and/or user name, or to post any advertisement, chain letter, solicitation or other commercial message, or to post material that is illegally invasive of another person's privacy.

    Quote Originally Posted by reactive View Post
    Okay, assuming you're right
    Unless you can post a CVC section that says I'm wrong, then I am RIGHT!

    Quote Originally Posted by reactive View Post
    what makes you so sure that that applies to the entire amount and not just $100?
    This is how it works... The $100 is statutory, and cannot be changed. As for the penalty assessments, which is also statutory and therefore cannot be changed, those apply as follows (in the case of the OP):
    Penalty assessments in addition to the base fine in the amount of $28.50 for every $10 of the base fine or a portion thereof...

    Then you add another 2 seperate penalty assessments of $20 and $35...

    You figure out the rest... I'm tired of explaining everything to you when all you do is bitch, nag and threaten!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by reactive View Post
    My point is that the judge deserves to have discretion.
    Apparently not when they're judging this citation! Hence the term, STATUTORY FINE!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by reactive View Post
    After all, for the situation described above, a cop has discretion whether to issue a ticket instead of a warning.
    Cops do have discretion but cameras don't!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by reactive View Post
    Now, if the original poster goes to court and the judge can see the videotape
    Are you sure ther's a vidoe tape?

    Quote Originally Posted by reactive View Post
    it can't hurt to suggest that incomplete stops before right turns are rampant
    Just because other people do it does not make it legal!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by reactive View Post
    ... a good record (if applicable) deserves a reduction in the fine.
    Show me the law that says that!

    A "good record" should be the standard, not the exception!

    Quote Originally Posted by reactive View Post
    If that fails, he (or she) probably would receive some satisfaction in seeing the law changed.
    That might take quite a bit of work... I didn't hear you volunteering!
  13. #13
    reactive is offline Member
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    Moderators can deal with the BS. I consider myself to be well-behaved here.

    As for the original post, then probably it's a series of photographs instead of video, but if the fine cannot be reduced by more than a $100, I think I have a better strategy. The article about the LA situation mentions other, less expensive charges for the same action. Go to court and ask to plead guilty to a lesser charge.
  14. #14
    I_Got_Banned is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by reactive View Post
    Moderators can deal with the BS. I consider myself to be well-behaved here.
    And that is the problem... You seem to be under the impression that everything you do or say is right and everything the you dislike is wrong.

    What you have to understand is that you are not the standard. The standards for what is acceptable on this forum are not set by you nor were they set when you arrived here. Those standard were established long before you decided to grace us all with your presence.

    So to go around ranting and raving about reporting people or about what you think is right or wrong is not only disrespectful to me, but to each and every member on this forum, and more importantly, to the moderators who have done an amazing job of establishing the balance that has made this place what it is today.

    Respect is earned, it is not a given.... Nor will it ever be earned by you threatening people. You want to be respected then you can begin by showing some of the same.
  15. #15
    patstew is offline Member
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by reactive View Post
    Moderators can deal with the BS. I consider myself to be well-behaved here.
    I consider myself Empress of the Known Universe.

    Doesn't make it true.

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