I need help with a speeding ticket

[Boiseguy]

I am in Boise Idaho and I got a speeding ticket for 70 in 55. I will make this as short as possible. I had a car following me very close close enough that I could not see his license plate in my rear view mirror I tried to change lanes a few times but he stayed on me this went on for almost 3 miles in a 35 mph zone. I was just out driving with no real destination so I figured I would turn on the next street to get this guy away from me as I went into the right turn lane I noticed the guy do the same so when I got to the sweeping corner ( not a 90 degree corner ) I did not slow down and as quickly as I could I accelerated to 55 mph which was the posted speed limit to get some distance between me and the guy following me which I did I estimate 500 to 700 feet. In less that 1 mile the guy caught me and was on my tail again. I then found a small opening in the traffic in the right lane that I could comfortably fit in but he would not fit in once I moved into the opening as I was moving into the opening I saw the cop behind the tailgater I thought he was getting the tailgater but he moved in behind me and pulled me over I pulled into a parking lot because the road I was on is noted as one of the most dangerous in Idaho the cop told me that he was pulling me over for my speed I told him I was not speeding but the tailgater must have been if he made up 500-700 feet in less than a mile he at first said he never saw the tailgater I said how could you not see him you where right behind him he said he was watching my car he asked me if I knew the guy I said no I was trying to figure out if it was a kid or a short older guy but could not tell for sure and watch what was going on in front of me. he said he saw 2 people in the car when he was trying to get him to move over so he could get around him when he said that I said so you saw him so you must have seen him tailgating me he said he didn't notice I asked him if he had it on video he said they don't have the equipment for video. The cop told me that he saw me when I made the sweeping corner so that would put the tailgater between me and him like I said above the tailgater must have been speeding if he caught up to me in the fairly short distance. I think he shot his laser at the tailgater but singled me out for the ticket. after I got the ticket I noticed that he wrote on the ticket that my car is a 97 when he had my registration in his hand that says it is an 87. The distance from the street he said he was on when he said he shot his speed gun and the intersection he said I was on when he pulled the trigger on his laser is a little over 1/2 a mile putting the tailgater directly between us. He was on a motorcycle sitting in traffic facing east while I was heading north so he was not resting the gun on anything or using a tripod. On the ticket he wrote the location as Eagle rd / River Valley these roads never intersect Eagle road is about 3 miles from where he pulled me over and River Valley is at least 15 miles away in another county. The roads I think he is referring to are N. Eagle rd. and E. River Valley. So with the wrong year of my car written on my ticket and the wrong streets written on the ticket and the distance between us when he shot the laser should I fight this ? or should I just pay it. I have no other points on my driving record so it should not bother my license or my insurance at all

 

[HighwayMan]

That's quite a "story".

Why didn't you just pull over and stop? Why didn't you pull into a gas station? So this guy in the other car came out of nowhere and started tailgating and following you for no reason?

 

[12345672]

I agree, nice story.

Maybe less drama when talking to the police that pull you over will help avoid tickets. If your attitude was that it was the guy tailgating you (that the cop didn't notice as being that particular a hazard) and the cop was wrong, wrong, wrong, you may have ensured yourself a ticket.

From what you described, the situation for the cop was probably that he was sitting in Meridian, back on River Valley Street back toward the elementary school timing people driving by. You make the corner onto Eagle Road down the road a bit from the cross street where the cop is sitting (down by the shopping center?) at a higher than preferred speed while being followed by another vehicle. You then change lanes (or had turned into the passing lane) and are passing other cars. While in the passing lane being followed by the second car, you are timed by the cop sitting on the side street and he pulls out to follow you after the second car passes by. You change lanes into the traveling lane and slow down and notice the cop that was following. The cop then pulls you over and you stop in a parking lot in Boise off of the road and receive a ticket.

If the cop had noticed your turn onto Eagle Road at a high speed and had been sitting on the side street further up Eagle Road, why would the car following you have been between you and the cop who was in front of you? Wouldn't the following car not been between you and the cop until after the cop pulled out to follow you at River Valley Street?

If you are going to argue that the cop timed the wrong car, your story should make sense.

http://www.bing.com/maps/default.aspx?v=2&FORM=LMLTCP&cp=43.626205~-116.355638&style=h&lvl=17&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&phx=0&phy=0&phscl=1&encType=1

The north south east and west on the street names indicate which side of town they are. East River Valley Street is on the east side. North Eagle Road is on the north side. North Eagle Road becomes South Eagle road as you travel further north or south, but it is still Eagle Road.

 

[Boiseguy]

I did not inject any drama into this situation until after he had written the ticket so at that point I don't think it helped or hurt me. He was holding the ticket and I think he was trying to get me to admit I was speeding but I was not speeding so why would I admit to it.
The cop was sitting on Fairview in traffic at a stop light he said he was facing east both me and the tailgater were traveling west on fairview until we turned north on Eagle rd. he then turned north on Eagle rd. putting me in first position the tailgater in second position the cop in third position. The guy tailgating me started about Five Mile Rd. I noticed him close but I have a funny license plate frame I thought he was just trying to read it so I ignored him at first but he just stayed on me I changed lanes a couple times to let him come around me but he just followed me into the other lane and stayed on me. You sound like you are from Boise or you are very familiar with Boise so you know what Fairview is like westbound past Records st. no shoulder and no place to turn off as I said I turned onto Eagle Rd. to get away from this guy but he caught up to me at Ustick Rd I was pulled over between Ustick and McMillan so I did not have many chances to safely pull off the road. Again if you are familiar with the Boise area you know Eagle Rd. I was not going to pull to the shoulder on Eagle Rd. and end up dead. I didn't do anything to provoke the guy tailgating me after I thought he was trying to read my plate frame I thought that maybe he was just old and couldn't tell how close he was to me. I turned westbound on Fairview from southbound on Mitchell I turned on a green light I kept pace with traffic and did not change lanes until after Cloverdale after he was already tailgating me what Could I have done to provoke him. I never said that I turned onto Eagle a High speed I said I did not slow down from the 35 I was doing on Fairview again if you are from this area you know the turn from westbound Fairview to northbound Eagle Rd. is not a sharp turn at all. As for passing other cars I never passed any cars on the section of road between Fairview and ustick on Eagle rd the only cars on this section of the road were me and the gold Lumina or corsica that was doing the tailgating. I was focused on the traffic ahead of me at Ustick and I was watching the corner behind me to see if the tailgater actually turned and if he did how close was he to me.

 

[I_Got_Banned]

Thank God for "paragraphs". Your post are very difficult to read... So I only read bits and pieces and had to stop...

Based on what I've read, let me give you a few tips about what will NOT work as a defense in court:

1. Claiming that you were tailgated by some guy for no apparent reason. You saw the cop there so why not drive up beside him and ask him for help?

2. Claiming that the cop singled you out by making up some sort of charge that you absolutely did not commit. Judges have heard that story hundreds of times and are more irritated by it than entertained.

3. Claiming that someone else or others around you were driving as fast or faster than you and therefore you are not guilty. Once the cop makes a visual estimate of a vehicle's speed, and after confirming that estimate with some sort of speed measuring device, then it is imperative that he/she keep visual contact with that one particular vehicle. And just like up normal human beings, cops are only blessed with one set of eyes, not more.

Lastly, and thanks to the map that 12345672 posted, the turn from westbound "E. Fairview Ave." to northbound "N. Eagle Rd." looks pretty "square" meaning it IS a 90 degree turn or close thereto... If you made that turn at 35mph, then you were probably speeding on the straightaway.

 

[Boiseguy]

I never saw he cop until he was about to pull me over I estimated his location by the information he gave me. I was in a custom Corvette / Show car that was in the Corvette Enthusiast Magazine July of 2005 I have over $50,000 in parts in this car and around 4,000 hours of my labor so I get a little paranoid when somebody gets too close as this guy did. It's not like I was out drag racing it or cutting people off or provoking people. This was only the 3rd time I have driven this car during the day in traffic I normally drive it late at night or early in the morning when there is hardly anybody on the road. I am not about to take a corner too fast and risk wrecking it. As for the corner being sharp I took the same corner yesterday in my Dodge Ram 1500 4x4 fullsize bed extended cab at 30 MPH with no problems at all. I think the cop saw my car and was going to give me a ticket because he was jealouse I am sure the only thing he has to drive is his mom's broke down PINTO at least on the days she doesn't drop him off at work. I'm sure he was not going to pull over the broke down Lumina or Corsica that was tailgating me it could have been his dad driving it and he would have gotten grounded.
I guess I will get a lawyer after I get the audio tape from the pig and let the lawyer take care of this. I had a data logger in the car the whole time I was driving it. The data logger shows that I was only doing 53.7 MPH as a top speed the entire time I was out or until I shut the car off when got pulled over. the data logger is hard wired not some light bouncing off a car at a half mile away it recorded my engine RPM and throttle position as well transmission gear position. Knowing the engine rpm transmission final output rear end gear and tire size it's pretty easy to do the math. I think even a cheap lawyer would have a pretty easy time proving this slobering retard wrong. I call him a slobering retard because as he was flapping his head with his worthless crap trying to convince me that he was right he spit on me twice the first time I didn't let it bother me but the second time he saw it to I said hey at about the same time he noticed it and he said sorry. I think I will make this pig and this ticket my mission to prove this douche wrong. Like I say welcome to Idaho where if it's fun or free it will be made illegal.

 

[I_Got_Banned]

I guess I will get a lawyer after I get the audio tape from the pig and let the lawyer take care of this.

What makes you think there is an audio tape? And even if there was, what part of your conversation with the officer do you think will prove your innocence?

I had a data logger in the car the whole time I was driving it. The data logger shows that I was only doing 53.7 MPH as a top speed the entire time I was out or until I shut the car off when got pulled over. the data logger is hard wired not some light bouncing off a car at a half mile away it recorded my engine RPM and throttle position as well transmission gear position. Knowing the engine rpm transmission final output rear end gear and tire size it's pretty easy to do the math.

First, good luck getting your data logger info introduced into evidence. Unless you are an expert witness or unless you can bring in a rep from the data logger manufacturer to describe and detail the inner workings of the unit, and lay the proper foundation for your evidence, that data is meaningless in court. And second, it is much easier for the judge to listen to the cop's testimony and specifically his Speed Measuring Device reading than it would be to listen in to your math lecture about engine RPM, throttle position, transmission gear position, final output rear end gear and tire size...

If you want to get even close to having the judge to consider that you are not guilty, then you need to lose the attitude, and simply attack the accuracy of the officer's equipment and the method with which he measured your speed. Unless you can find fault in that measurement, your word against that of the officer will get you now where but to the clerk's window so you can pay your fine.

Good luck.

 

[Boiseguy]

How do you discredit the speed gun they have that pretty much locked up don't they? after all it is their income. Don't they have to prove my information is incorrect I thought I was innocent until proven guilty. If I had to have an expert witness in court to explain the inner workings of my data logger don't they have to have an expert to explain the inner working of the speed gun. besides all of the calculations from my data logger can be repeated by anyone will the cop or the court even know how the gun comes up with a speed and can they repeat the calculation?

 

[I_Got_Banned]

How do you discredit the speed gun they have that pretty much locked up don't they?

Exactly... So how far do you think your claim that he's a pig, a douch and a retard will get you in court? And that he only cited you because he was jealous of your show car when in fact he had to have gotten that reading on his gun somehow. Furthermore, and if you're gonna argue that it wasn't you that he measured or that he faked his measurement, then why charge you with only exceeding the limit by 15mph over the limit? Why not 25mph? Your car, I'm sure is capable... Why not charge you with careless or reckless driving based on your making a 90 degree turn at 35mph? A turn which YOU initially claimed was not a 90 degree turn but then when the map showed up, your story changed!!!

after all it is their income.

You mean cops in Idaho are on commission... They get paid based on how many tickets they write?

Don't they have to prove my information is incorrect

No, you have to lay the proper foundation for your information before introducing it into evidence.

I thought I was innocent until proven guilty.

You are! However, the officer willl testify that he witnessed you speeding, that he measured your speed and was able to determine it by a measuring device that the court has recognized as a proper and accurate way of measuring speeds. Unless you can somehow raise doubt as to the elements of the officer's testimony, then it's your word against his. Now considering that he wins nothing if you lose and loses nothing if you win (as opposed to you saving a few bucks if you win) his word tends to carry a bit more weight than yours.

If I had to have an expert witness in court to explain the inner workings of my data logger don't they have to have an expert to explain the inner working of the speed gun.

No! Radar/Laser guns are, again, accepted methods of measuring speed and courts everywhere have taken "judicial notice" of the accuracy of those devices... Whereas your data logger and although it may offer the scientific information that you mentioned, it lacks the legal precedent that is required for it to be used in court without the testimony of a legal expert.

Once again and unless you can somehow that the officer's measurement of your speed was in any way innaccurate or erroneous, I think you've got a pretty weak case. Still, if you feel strongly that you were wrongfully accused, you have every right to defend yourself in any way you see fit. Talk to a couple of attorneys and see what they tell you... You never know!

Good luck!

 

[Boiseguy]

So you don't think I have chance if I

show that the officer made mistakes ( did not pay attention to detail) on the ticket wrong year wrong streets

and that I have proof that I was not speeding with my data logger information

and the information about the tailgater

well then why do we have courts is just another way of wasting taxpayer money?

 

[I_Got_Banned]

So you don't think I have chance if I

show that the officer made mistakes ( did not pay attention to detail) on the ticket wrong year wrong streets

That might get you somewhere but then again, the wrong year/model of your vehicle are not elements of the offense... As for the wrong streets, and assuming he testifies in accordance to the information on the citation then there is no contradiction in his "court testimony".

and that I have proof that I was not speeding with my data logger information

I've already expressed my opinion about your data logger information. I believe its worthless in comparison to what the officer will testify to and the information he will present. The judge may feel otherwise... I don't know.

and the information about the tailgater

Again, I've already hinted my opinion about that, but since you haven't been able to take a hint, I'll come flat out and say it. Your story about the tailgater does not jive. And even if it did, you had a few other options as to what you could have done. Also... if this guy was so close to you to the point where you could not see his license plate, then why would the officer see you speeding but not him, why did he not cite him for following too close and instead he opted to fabricate a story about you driving at 15 miles over the limit???

So my advice, skip the tailgater story when you're in court. It is inconsistent, contradictory, makes no sense, and more importantly, and since you had other options (like pull over and stop) IT WILL GET YOU NOWHERE!

well then why do we have courts is just another way of wasting taxpayer money?

I never said don't go to court... In fact I urged you to defend yourself by saying that "if you feel you were wrongfully accused, you have every right to defend yourself in any way you see fit"... However, based on the statements that you made here and the evidence that you are using to justify your innocence, I think you have a weak case.

So weak, in fact, that in my opinion, it is the perfect example of a "waste of taxpayers' money"!!! But the system still affords you that opportunity... So have at it!

That, is my opinion... Just because it doesn't fit within the realm of what you wanted to hear does not make it wrong... And just because I think I'm right does not mean the judge will think the same!!!

 

[Maestro64]

IGB, is correct, if the prosecution is smart they will not allow the data logger information enter into evidence since it can not be show that the data actually represents what happen that day, simple put, all they have to say is you could have edited the data file to have it show what you want it to show. You can not prove it was not tampered with.

Yes, the prosecution has to prove radar is in fact accurate, however, it been done in the past so all court take what is called Judicial notice on the fact it does in fact measure speed. Also there is a well know TN case that says the officer does not have to be an expert on Radar, they do not even need to understand the science to get a measurement, which works in your favor since most police take this to heart and have no clue that radar has its limitations, and you can use this against them in court.

Based on your description of your car, I agree you were singled out, the officer got a speed reading on his radar and saw your car and assuming it was the one producing that speed. When the officer is confronted with any number of cars which could be speeding, natural basis will lead him to the car that looks fast, ie was it the Corvette or the Buick station wagon.

The idiots who believe Radar is perfect have not clue how it works and do not realize the device has no way to tell the office which car produced the speed, and the fact that no one can see radar ways. Most police see a reading then look around and in a very short period of time determine which car is most likely producing that speed. Very few police actually look around first see a car which they believe is speeding then take a reading, specially if they are driving and using moving Radar which I think was the case here.

Research Moving Radar, it is fill with errors that can cause the officer to get an artificially high speed, if the officer has no clue about these errors he just sees a speed and assume it is correct.

If you are going to fight the ticket do your research and come prepared to discredit the office testimony and his interruption of the situation. Attack his so call evidence. Do not fixate on the tailgater, the officer already said he never saw the car, so he most likely will never admit that in court, since he was obviously fixated on your car. Trying to get him to admit it was there will only piss you off and make you look less credible to the court, you want the officer to look less creditable by show what he recalls is not correct. You can ask him if other cars were around, what the traffic condition were that day, how did he isolate your speed from any other car on the road. There are a bunch of questions you can ask to force him into a corner that show things do not add up.

On the data logger thing, I would still bring it, and try to use it just have back up plan if they do not allow it. The only reason I say this, is because there have been a number of cases where people used this kind of data successfully to sway the decision in their favor. There is a highly publicized case in CA, where someone had a tracker on their kids car and used the data stored at a third party company to show the kids car never got near the speed that the officer said the radar measure. This case has gone back and forth a number of time now, since the state came back and claimed that GPS data was never proven in court to be accurate, the state won that battle but it is being appealed so the final verdict is still pending

 

[HighwayMan]

Based on your description of your car, I agree you were singled out, the officer got a speed reading on his radar and saw your car and assuming it was the one producing that speed. When the officer is confronted with any number of cars which could be speeding, natural basis will lead him to the car that looks fast, ie was it the Corvette or the Buick station wagon.

That's a totally baseless assumption.

 

[HighwayMan]

Most police see a reading then look around and in a very short period of time determine which car is most likely producing that speed. Very few police actually look around first see a car which they believe is speeding then take a reading, specially if they are driving and using moving Radar which I think was the case here.

No, most police look around first, perform an visual independent speed estimation on the target vehicle, then simply confirm that estimation with the radar.

 

[Boiseguy]

The cop originally said he did not see the car /tailgater but as he was trying to convince me he was right and I was trying to get him to screw up he asked me if I knew who was in the car I said no I then said I thought I saw an older lady in the back seat he said the he saw 2 occupants in the car I then said so you did see the car he said yes he was trying to get the car to move out of the way. When I first saw the cop I looked in my rearview mirror and saw the tailgater about 15 feet off my back bumper I then saw what looked like flashing lights inside the tailgaters car but I was looking thru the windows of the taigaters car and was seeing the cops lights behind the car I then looked up a little bit and could see the cops head/helmet. I have no doubt that the cop saw the guy tailgating me. I faxed a public records request to the meridian police on Friday of last week asking for all audio and video recordings year make and model of the speed gun he was using and the year make and model of the motorcycle he was riding they said it would take 2 days to get the information to me I have not heard from them yet. I was hoping to get the information on the motorcycle and speed gun so when they say I can't use the iformation from my data logger because it is aftermarket or non factory installed equipment I could say neither is the speed gun unless it is a Honda speed gun but I don't think honda makes one