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Laser, technical questions

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Leviticus

Member
What is the name of your state?What is the name of your state? FL

I have a few technical questions concerning the use of the Ultralyte 100LR laser by LTI.

I have visited traffic court a couple of times now and all the officers seem to be trained to say that they *first* "observed the vehicle travelling at a high rate of speed", then they activated their radar/laser and took their readings.

Is there a particular reason that they say they *first* observed the vehicle, then they took readings with their equipment?

Second question. How much time, on average would it take for an officer to first observe a vehicle that seemed to be speeding, and then to activate and finally take a reading using a laser?

Third question. Similar, but more detailed. How much time (on average) would it take an officer (AFTER he/she has observed a vehicle that appeared to be speeding) to move from the end of a driveway, into the middle of a road, stop, position the Ultralyte 100LR appropriately using a hand-held unit, aim at the vehicle approx. 260 yards away, lock it in, and take a reading? I'm not looking for tenths of a second here. More like how many seconds, approximately. As much detail would be appreciated on the mechanics involved in addition to the time.

Thanks!
 


sukharev

Member
You asked questions which cannot be answered. Or, rather, the answer is: it depends on each case.

In general, laser ticket has distance marked on it, so you can start from there.

Another general answer to 1st question: officers are trained to do it this way. It's called establishing traffic history.

If you want a specific answer, ask a specific question on your ticket.
 

Leviticus

Member
Hmmmm... Not too many responses.

Let me make one adjustment to the questions involving a laser.
Instead of the Ultralyte 100LR, replace that with 'any hand-held
laser unit'.

Since I've never used one I have no idea whatsoever how long it takes
to bring it up into position, set the sites on the vehicle in question,
lock it in and take a reading.

I'm hoping there are several officers and others here who have used
a laser before and can answer these questions, again, just generally.

Thanks for your help!
 

Leviticus

Member
sukharev said:
You asked questions which cannot be answered. Or, rather, the answer is: it depends on each case.
>>You asked questions which cannot be answered. Or, rather, the answer is: it depends on each case.<<

Sukharev, I deliberately asked general questions (apart from the
laser make) using the phrase 'on average'.


>>. In general, laser ticket has distance marked on it, so you can start from there. <<

And that's exactly where I started from. A quote from my post:

"... aim at the vehicle approx. 260 yards away, lock it in, and take
a reading?"


>> Another general answer to 1st question: officers are trained to do it this way. It's called establishing traffic history.

Thank you! That's all I was looking for, a general answer.
So by saying that they have observed a vehicle travelling at a high rate of speed, they are expected to have in fact done so.
It must take a couple of seconds to make the observation correct?
 

CdwJava

Senior Member
Leviticus said:
Is there a particular reason that they say they *first* observed the vehicle, then they took readings with their equipment?
because radar and lidar are used to CONFIRM the officer's visual estimation of the speed.


Second question. How much time, on average would it take for an officer to first observe a vehicle that seemed to be speeding, and then to activate and finally take a reading using a laser?
That, I do not know specifically. Mechanically, you can get a reading in as little as 2 seconds ... it may be less, but I'm giving myself a good margin of error. Whether that is sufficient tracking for your court is a matter for your local courts.


Third question. Similar, but more detailed. How much time (on average) would it take an officer (AFTER he/she has observed a vehicle that appeared to be speeding) to move from the end of a driveway, into the middle of a road, stop, position the Ultralyte 100LR appropriately using a hand-held unit, aim at the vehicle approx. 260 yards away, lock it in, and take a reading? I'm not looking for tenths of a second here. More like how many seconds, approximately.
Too much estimation. If the officer is in a position where they had to do that they were not in a good place to begin with. Off the top of my head, I'd say maybe 5 to 8 seconds - depending on how fast he gets in to the road and gets the lidar device aimed.

What happened in your case, and what do you plan to present as a defense?

The ol', "the officer lied" defense doesn't usually work. I am not familiar enough with FL law to present any ideas of how you might defend a radar/lidar case, but there are likely a number of options out there. Your best bet will always be to hire an attorney that specializes in these sorts of traffic offenses ... he/she will likely have the information you seek, or, they will get it! (At $150 - $250 per hour)

- Carl
 

Leviticus

Member
CdwJava said:
because radar and lidar are used to CONFIRM the officer's visual estimation of the speed.
So an officer is never supposed to first point and shoot (the laser) and then later say their first move was a visual observation?

CdwJava said:
Too much estimation. If the officer is in a position where they had to do that they were not in a good place to begin with. Off the top of my head, I'd say maybe 5 to 8 seconds - depending on how fast he gets in to the road and gets the lidar device aimed.
OK, thanks. This is the same approx. time I would have estimated. It makes sense.

CdwJava said:
The ol', "the officer lied" defense doesn't usually work.
Right I realise that. I'm not planning to try that.

CdwJava said:
What happened in your case, and what do you plan to present as a defense?
My case consists primarily of technical errors. One concerning a sign and another concerning the location of the alleged offence.
I feel very confident that on those two errors alone I should be able to get the charge dismissed.

What I'm doing now with these timing questions that I'm asking is going to be icing on the cake if I can get the calculations to work properly.

On paper the ticket looks like an open and shut case for the prosecution.
But if you know the area, the signs, the streets etc. it is far from that.

One interesting twist that I'm working on now (after finally being able to decipher the officer's handwriting on the ticket) is whether the officer would have had time to first observe my alleged speeding, then move out into the street, position the laser, locate my vehicle and take a reading.

For you see, in my situation, the road wasn't straight. I've re-visited the site many times (it's close to home). The officer can only begin to see me once I've passed a particular point on the road where it turns. (Yes I've got pictures).

So if the officer did first in fact observe me from the laneway, (as indicated on the ticket) and then moved out on the street to take the reading) a certain amount of time would have transpired. This time is critical. Because, if the correct amount of time transpired, I was on street B instead of street A.

If the time was negligible according to the officer, then he couldn't have first observed me (where he said he did) before taking the reading. He would have been in the middle of the road to begin with, ready to 'shoot' as I came around the corner.
 

sukharev

Member
Leviticus said:
Sukharev, I deliberately asked general questions (apart from the laser make) using the phrase 'on average'.

And that's exactly where I started from. A quote from my post:

"... aim at the vehicle approx. 260 yards away, lock it in, and take
a reading?"
First of all, general questions are not what you were after, as your subsequent post shows. Second, you did not say: "distance on ticket was..."

Third, you are in for a nasty surprize: officer would just say "I do not recall, maybe couple of seconds", and get it over with.

You need to do proper math, specify your speed and car position, and especially point to any sweep error that could occur if you were coming from the bend. Even then, your case if far from solid. You have to prepare backups, like speed survey and do full discovery of laser calibration, maintenance records, officer's training record, etc. Your original idea on time and measurements would be a good start, but you also have to show lack of independent recollection when you do so, ask officer if he recalls, then show he does not. Finally, get the judicial notice question figured out first, see if FL has none. Maintenance may be the key to your case, if there was none done for a while.
 

CdwJava

Senior Member
Leviticus said:
So an officer is never supposed to first point and shoot (the laser) and then later say their first move was a visual observation?
Not quite ... observation first, then aim and "shoot" the laser. However, the two can be done at virtually the same time as he would have to have seen you with the naked eye in order to hit you with the laser.


Right I realise that. I'm not planning to try that.
You'd be surprised how many people DO try the, "He lied" defense. I have found that judges (and officers) tend to react less personally when the argument concerns how they might have erred rather than, "He lied."


On paper the ticket looks like an open and shut case for the prosecution.
But if you know the area, the signs, the streets etc. it is far from that.
As you know, it's an uphill battle. But, it's not impossible.


One interesting twist that I'm working on now (after finally being able to decipher the officer's handwriting on the ticket) is whether the officer would have had time to first observe my alleged speeding, then move out into the street, position the laser, locate my vehicle and take a reading.
I'm trying to understand why he would position himself in such a way that he would have to MOVE before activating the lidar. That seems very odd to me.


So if the officer did first in fact observe me from the laneway, (as indicated on the ticket) and then moved out on the street to take the reading) a certain amount of time would have transpired. This time is critical. Because, if the correct amount of time transpired, I was on street B instead of street A.
Careful. If you are trying to argue that he cited you on the wrong street, this is a technical (clerical) issue that is not usually an out in court. If you had been traveling on the listed street at the time of the observation or the reading, the cite should stand.


- Carl
 

CdwJava

Senior Member
sukharev said:
You need to do proper math, specify your speed and car position, and especially point to any sweep error that could occur if you were coming from the bend. Even then, your case if far from solid. You have to prepare backups, like speed survey and do full discovery of laser calibration, maintenance records, officer's training record, etc. Your original idea on time and measurements would be a good start, but you also have to show lack of independent recollection when you do so, ask officer if he recalls, then show he does not. Finally, get the judicial notice question figured out first, see if FL has none. Maintenance may be the key to your case, if there was none done for a while.
As rare as I might say this, Sukharev has it pretty spot on here.

- Carl
 

Leviticus

Member
CdwJava said:
I'm trying to understand why he would position himself in such a way that he would have to MOVE before activating the lidar. That seems very odd to me.
Carl, I have given this more thought last night and I have come to the conclusion that you are right about this.

I'm pretty sure I had seen the officer with his laser held upright when he was indicating to me that I should pull over. Not knowing the first thing about lasers, I had assumed that he had taken his reading right there in the middle of the street.

But as you say it doesn't make much sense. I'm now convinced that he took his reading at the end of the driveway and then walked into the street to pull me over. This would have given him enough time to first observe me and then take his reading before I went too far down the road. It's also a far safer method of taking readings! :)

One more question regarding the laser. The unit the officer used is capable of a 2x optical zoom (according to the manufacturers website).
I've been in court recently where officers using other units/radar used 8x optical zooms to assist their readings.

How would it be possible to take a reading/see a license plate that's more than 200 yards away with just a 2x optical zoom?
How is that done?

Thanks for your help!

After visiting this forum now for about a month I've only seen a few responders who take the time and effort to offer some quality help/advice in a non-condescending manner. Yourself, Suk and Pug are the ones who come to mind.

Keep up the good work.
 

Leviticus

Member
sukharev said:
You need to do proper math, specify your speed and car position, and especially point to any sweep error that could occur if you were coming from the bend...you also have to show lack of independent recollection when you do so, ask officer if he recalls, then show he does not. Finally, get the judicial notice question figured out first, see if FL has none. Maintenance may be the key to your case, if there was none done for a while.
Thanks for these tips Sukharev!
 

sukharev

Member
Leviticus said:
One more question regarding the laser. The unit the officer used is capable of a 2x optical zoom (according to the manufacturers website).
I've been in court recently where officers using other units/radar used 8x optical zooms to assist their readings.

How would it be possible to take a reading/see a license plate that's more than 200 yards away with just a 2x optical zoom?
How is that done?
He did not have to do that. He just got your car, then stopped you and got the rest from your registration.
 

CdwJava

Senior Member
Agreed, he did not need to read your plate from a distance he only needed to get a reading from your vehicle.

As a caveat I am not certified to operate radar OR lidar ... I purchase the devices and maintain the training records for the officers that are trained, but I am not an operator so I cannot speak in any great depth about the technical issues involved in their operation.

And thanks for the good words. You're welcome.

- Carl
 
Leviticus said:
I've only seen a few responders who take the time and effort to offer some quality help/advice in a non-condescending manner. Yourself, Suk and Pug are the ones who come to mind
What about me??????????????
 

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