Left Turn Question

[Camden Crazy]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? West Virginia

I was in a left turn lane in the city of Beckley. I entered the intersection on a solid green light attempting to make a left turn. Due to heavy oncoming traffic, I waited in the intersection yielding the right of way. As the light turned yellow, I started to make my turn, but noticed that an oncoming car heading straight through the intersection at a high rate of speed was not going to stop. The car entered the intersection just as the light turned red. I waited for the car to pass, then completed my left turn. I was cited for running a red light. There were no signs indicating left turn on green arrow only, or no left turn.


Am I guilty?

[VeronicaLodge]

yes, you should have waited outside of the interesection until it was safe to make your turn on green then you wouldn't've been trapped there when it turned yellow then red.

[jjoshua]

You entered the intersection on green and waited for oncoming traffic. Sounds correct to me.

[Ozark_Sophist]

Originally Posted by jjoshua

You entered the intersection on green and waited for oncoming traffic. Sounds correct to me.

No, a driver must not enter an intersection until it is safe to do so and can complete the turn without stopping and blocking the intersection. Driver's ed 101.

[Camden Crazy]

Well, my driver's ed instructor instructed me to do exactly what I did. Granted that was 30 (ticketless) years ago, so I asked my 16 year old son how he was instructed back in February and my 18 year old daughter how she was instructed two years ago. They were both taught to do exactly what I did. Apparently, it is not driver's ed 101.

[Camden Crazy]

From the WV DOT Driving Handbook, Page 34

"Circular Green: Drivers facing this signal may enter the intersection and go straight through or turn right or left, unless other traffic control devices (signs or pavement markings) prohibit certain movements. All turns must be made in accordance with accepted right‑of‑way rules. A driver who is facing a circular green indication and wishes to turn left must yield to oncoming cars."

This says nothing about waiting for the intersection to be clear. In fact the first statement starts with "Drivers facing this signal may enter the intersection"

To me, this section describes exactly what I did. But my bigger question is how do I fight this charge? I am told, I must appear in person, but I live in Texas. I don't want to spend an extra $1,000 to travel back, but my choice is getting 3 poits on my license when I feel I acted exactly how the handbook tells me.

[Zigner]

Originally Posted by Camden Crazy

From the WV DOT Driving Handbook, Page 34

"Circular Green: Drivers facing this signal may enter the intersection and go straight through or turn right or left, unless other traffic control devices (signs or pavement markings) prohibit certain movements. All turns must be made in accordance with accepted right‑of‑way rules. A driver who is facing a circular green indication and wishes to turn left must yield to oncoming cars."

This says nothing about waiting for the intersection to be clear. In fact the first statement starts with "Drivers facing this signal may enter the intersection"

To me, this section describes exactly what I did. But my bigger question is how do I fight this charge? I am told, I must appear in person, but I live in Texas. I don't want to spend an extra $1,000 to travel back, but my choice is getting 3 poits on my license when I feel I acted exactly how the handbook tells me.

Since when has the "driver's handbook" been the "law"?

Please give us the exact code section you were cited with.

[Camden Crazy]

§17C-3-5. Traffic-control signal legend.
Whenever traffic is controlled by traffic-control signals exhibiting the words "go,""caution" or "stop," or exhibiting different colored lights successively one at a time, or with arrows, the following colors only shall be used and said terms and lights shall indicate and apply to drivers of vehicles and pedestrians as follows:
(a) Green alone or "go":
(1) Vehicular traffic facing the signal, except when prohibited under section two, article twelve of this chapter may proceed straight through or turn right or left unless a sign at such place prohibits either such turn. But vehicular traffic, including vehicles turning right or left, shall yield the right-of-way to other vehicles and to pedestrians lawfully within the intersection or an adjacent crosswalk at the time such signal is exhibited.
(2) Pedestrians facing the signal may proceed across the roadway within any marked or unmarked crosswalk.
(b) Yellow alone or "caution" when shown following the green or "go" signal:
(1) Vehicular traffic facing the signal is thereby warned that the red or "stop" signal will be exhibited immediately thereafter and such vehicular traffic shall not enter or be crossing the intersection when the red or "stop" signal is exhibited.
(2) Pedestrians facing such signal are thereby advised that there is insufficient time to cross the roadway, and any pedestrian then starting to cross shall yield the right-of- way to all vehicles.
(c) Red alone or "stop":
(1) Vehicular traffic facing the signal shall stop before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection or, if none, then before entering the intersection and shall remain standing until green or "go" is shown alone except as provided in paragraphs (2) and (3) of this subdivision (c).
(2) A vehicle which is stopped in obedience to a red or "stop" signal as close as practicable at the entrance to the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection or, if none, then at the entrance to the intersection, may cautiously make a right turn but such vehicle shall yield the right-of-way to pedestrians lawfully within a crosswalk and to other vehicular traffic proceeding as directed by the signal at said intersection, except that local authorities in their respective jurisdictions may by ordinance prohibit any such right turn against a red or "stop" signal at any intersection within such jurisdiction, which ordinance shall be effective when a sign is erected at such intersection giving notice thereof.
(3) A vehicle which is stopped in obedience to a red or "stop" signal as close as practicable at the entrance to the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection or, if none, then at the entrance to the intersection on a one-way street which intersects another one-way street on which traffic moves to the left, may cautiously make a left turn into said one-way street but such vehicle shall yield the right-of-way to pedestrians lawfully within a crosswalk and to other vehicular traffic proceeding as directed by the signal at said intersection, except that local authorities in their respective jurisdictions may by ordinance prohibit any such left turn against a red or "stop" signal at any intersection within such jurisdiction, which ordinance shall be effective when a sign is erected at such intersection giving notice thereof.
(4) No pedestrian facing such signal shall enter the roadway unless he can do so safely and without interfering with any vehicular traffic.
(d) Red with green arrow:
(1) Vehicular traffic facing such signal may cautiously enter the intersection only to make the movement indicated by such arrow but shall yield the right-of-way to pedestrians lawfully within a crosswalk and to other traffic lawfully using the intersection.
(2) No pedestrian facing such signal shall enter the roadway unless he can do so safely and without interfering with any vehicular traffic.
(e) In the event an official traffic-control signal is erected and maintained at a place other than an intersection, the provisions of this section shall be applicable except as to those provisions which by their nature can have no application. Any stop required shall be made at a sign or marking on the pavement indicating where the stop shall be made, but in the absence of any such sign or marking the stop shall be made at the signal.
(f) The motorman of any streetcar shall obey the above signals as applicable to vehicles.

[Camden Crazy]

BTW -- Section 2, Article 12 references railroad crossings which does not pertain to the intersection through which I was traveling.

[VeronicaLodge]

Originally Posted by Camden Crazy

But my bigger question is how do I fight this charge? I am told, I must appear in person, but I live in Texas. I don't want to spend an extra $1,000 to travel back, but my choice is getting 3 poits on my license when I feel I acted exactly how the handbook tells me.

if you want to fight it you have to show up and ask for a trial and present your defense, so whether you want to spend 1,000 to try and avoid 3 points is entirely up to you

[Zigner]

Originally Posted by Camden Crazy

§17C-3-5. Traffic-control signal legend.
Whenever traffic is controlled by traffic-control signals exhibiting the words "go,""caution" or "stop," or exhibiting different colored lights successively one at a time, or with arrows, the following colors only shall be used and said terms and lights shall indicate and apply to drivers of vehicles and pedestrians as follows:
(a) Green alone or "go":
(1) Vehicular traffic facing the signal, except when prohibited under section two, article twelve of this chapter may proceed straight through or turn right or left unless a sign at such place prohibits either such turn. But vehicular traffic, including vehicles turning right or left, shall yield the right-of-way to other vehicles and to pedestrians lawfully within the intersection or an adjacent crosswalk at the time such signal is exhibited.
(2) Pedestrians facing the signal may proceed across the roadway within any marked or unmarked crosswalk.
(b) Yellow alone or "caution" when shown following the green or "go" signal:
(1) Vehicular traffic facing the signal is thereby warned that the red or "stop" signal will be exhibited immediately thereafter and such vehicular traffic shall not enter or be crossing the intersection when the red or "stop" signal is exhibited.
(2) Pedestrians facing such signal are thereby advised that there is insufficient time to cross the roadway, and any pedestrian then starting to cross shall yield the right-of- way to all vehicles.
(c) Red alone or "stop":
(1) Vehicular traffic facing the signal shall stop before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection or, if none, then before entering the intersection and shall remain standing until green or "go" is shown alone except as provided in paragraphs (2) and (3) of this subdivision (c).
(2) A vehicle which is stopped in obedience to a red or "stop" signal as close as practicable at the entrance to the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection or, if none, then at the entrance to the intersection, may cautiously make a right turn but such vehicle shall yield the right-of-way to pedestrians lawfully within a crosswalk and to other vehicular traffic proceeding as directed by the signal at said intersection, except that local authorities in their respective jurisdictions may by ordinance prohibit any such right turn against a red or "stop" signal at any intersection within such jurisdiction, which ordinance shall be effective when a sign is erected at such intersection giving notice thereof.
(3) A vehicle which is stopped in obedience to a red or "stop" signal as close as practicable at the entrance to the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection or, if none, then at the entrance to the intersection on a one-way street which intersects another one-way street on which traffic moves to the left, may cautiously make a left turn into said one-way street but such vehicle shall yield the right-of-way to pedestrians lawfully within a crosswalk and to other vehicular traffic proceeding as directed by the signal at said intersection, except that local authorities in their respective jurisdictions may by ordinance prohibit any such left turn against a red or "stop" signal at any intersection within such jurisdiction, which ordinance shall be effective when a sign is erected at such intersection giving notice thereof.
(4) No pedestrian facing such signal shall enter the roadway unless he can do so safely and without interfering with any vehicular traffic.
(d) Red with green arrow:
(1) Vehicular traffic facing such signal may cautiously enter the intersection only to make the movement indicated by such arrow but shall yield the right-of-way to pedestrians lawfully within a crosswalk and to other traffic lawfully using the intersection.
(2) No pedestrian facing such signal shall enter the roadway unless he can do so safely and without interfering with any vehicular traffic.
(e) In the event an official traffic-control signal is erected and maintained at a place other than an intersection, the provisions of this section shall be applicable except as to those provisions which by their nature can have no application. Any stop required shall be made at a sign or marking on the pavement indicating where the stop shall be made, but in the absence of any such sign or marking the stop shall be made at the signal.
(f) The motorman of any streetcar shall obey the above signals as applicable to vehicles.

You didn't respond to my request.

Please give us the exact code section you were cited with.

[Camden Crazy]

WV Code 17C-3-5. I actually posted the entire text of the code for you.

[Maestro64]

I know that town very well in WV, been threw it a number of times over the years, it gets lots of Vacationer traffic in the summer and the police are laying in wait just looking for someone to miss navigate. Your correct they should have left turn lights since people tend to pull onto the side streets to park when stopping there to have a bite to eat but they do not. Because of this traffic has tendency to back up because of people getting caught in the intersection trying to make turns.

The problem you have here is WV wrote their law different than the requirement set forth by the MUTCD saying running a red light happens when you cross the stop line or cross walk. They added the words "cossing the intersection" when the light is red even if your in the middle of it at the time. However, there usually a second part to this kind of wording which say you may not enter the intersection unless you can clear it before the light turns. I guess it is implied.

The MUTCD clearly states that cars which enter on green or yellow are allow to clear the intersection even after the light turns red. There is state in the light timing which all light must stay red so cars can clear the intersection. the Reason all states are required to follow the MUTCD is so people traveling form one state to another do not encounter special rules that are outside the normal.

i am not sure how you attack this one, normally if you can show you did not cross the stop line after the light turned red then you did not run the red. The only thing here could the officer clearly see what you light was when you completed the turn. Also could you see the light, some times based on light position you can not see it once you pass certain point in the intersection so there is no way of knowing what the color was after that point.

You could try the MUTCD approach and see if it works but it might not. You might have to face it you going to have to pay the town of Beckley's Troll for crossing threw their town.

On the last point, check to see if TX assigns points to out of state tickets many states do not, if that is the case then most likely you insurance will not be affected.

[Hey There]

§17C-3-5. Traffic-control signal legend.
Whenever traffic is controlled by traffic-control signals exhibiting the words "go,""caution" or "stop," or exhibiting different colored lights successively one at a time, or with arrows, the following colors only shall be used and said terms and lights shall indicate and apply to drivers of vehicles and pedestrians as follows:
17C-3-5

[b](a) Green alone or "go":[/B]

(1) Vehicular traffic facing the signal, except when prohibited under section two, article twelve of this chapter may proceed
straight through or turn right or left unless a sign at such
place prohibits either such turn. But vehicular traffic, including vehicles turning right or left, shall yield the right-of-way to other vehicles and to pedestrians lawfully within the intersection or an adjacent crosswalk at the time such signal is exhibited.
b) Yellow alone or "caution" when shown following the green or "go" signal:

(1) Vehicular traffic facing the signal is thereby warned that the red or "stop" signal will be exhibited immediately thereafter and such vehicular traffic shall not enter or be crossing the intersection when the red or "stop" signal is exhibited.

But according to your post you entered the intersection on the green. NOT yellow. and 17C-3-5 states that a driver entering a intersection on the green can proceed thru the intersection.

jjoshua You entered the intersection on green and waited for oncoming traffic. Sounds correct to me.

Normally a car entering an intersection on a yellow has the right of way as Maestro 64 has pointed out and all states must follow the MUTCD

The officer may not have been in position to see what color the light was when you entered the intersection.
From MUDCO FAQ
Info on how a driver can enter a intersection in the green and end up trapped in the yellow.
Q: What is the "yellow trap" and why is it a safety issue?
A: The "yellow trap" is a potentially adverse safety situation inherent in some signal phasing sequences involving lagging left turns in one direction. A left turning driver, in the intersection waiting for gaps in oncoming traffic in order to turn left on a permissive green signal indication, sees the signals for adjacent through traffic change from green to yellow and mistakenly assumes that oncoming through traffic also has yellow signals at the same time and will be soon coming to a stop. This mistaken assumption "traps" the permissive left turner into thinking it is OK to safely complete the turn when in reality it is not safe, because the opposing traffic continues along with a lagging left turn, and a severe crash can be the result. Section 4D.05, item B.4 prohibits the "yellow trap" sequence except in rare and unusual cases and then only with a W25-1 or W25-2 sign to warn drivers of the condition.

Q: Is it correct to assume that there is no need to be concerned about the "yellow trap" on an intersection approach where there is no separate left turn phase (that is, the left turn mode on that approach is "permissive only")?
A: No, this is not a correct assumption. The prohibition against "yellow trap" sequences applies to any signalized location at which any left turn movement can be made on a permissive basis. An approach that does not have a left turn green arrow but from which a left turn movement is legal and feasible during the circular green phase would "trap" left turners on yellow if the opposite approach has a lagging left turn phase (the opposing green continues.) Also, with actuated signal operation, phase skipping in the absence of demand can also result in the yellow trap. This can be avoided by using the "anti-backup" feature provided by most signal controller manufacturers.

Texas does belong to the Driver's Licence Compact from a site I checked with a 2 point penalty. (Google Driver's Licence Compact)

Some lawyers handle citations issued in their state for drivers with out-of-state licences. This may or may not be a financially feasible alternative to paying the fine but it could be worth checking out.

Good Luck on this.
Let us know how it goes.
Best Regards,
Hey There

[Camden Crazy]

Thank you all. This information is very helpful. I will indeed keep you posted.