Need Defense Help for 22349 via TBD

[screenname]

Hello all,

I was cited back in November for speeding (87mph) in Downtown LA. I was entering the 110S freeway via the 5S corkscrew and was heading towards the 10W. I had no idea that the posted limit from the 110S/101 junction is 55mph. I was cited near the 10W transition and pulled off onto the Washington exit.

The citation was issued by a LAPD motorcycle officer at 5:20AM. Here is how my citation reads:

"22349 B VC Paced 87/55 100'
Rear #4 LN 6+SEC LN CHNG
POV #2 LN DRK ST LITE 670

Cited Approx Speed: 85MPH MAX SPEED: 55MPH

LOCATION OF CITATION: 110 S/B #2 LN to #4 LN ADD OLYMPIC"

My dialogue with the officer was limited. I did not admit to speeding, I did not state my speed, I kept quiet expecting to fight the citation. I asked how he assessed my speed and he responded that he paced me. I asked how long he paced me and he said 100'. Now in reading the citation, it seems that he wrote that he paced me for 6+seconds at a distance of 100' behind the vehicle. The only reason I note this is at 87mph, one would cover 127.6 feet per second meaning he paced me for less than 1 second at the assessed speed (if the distance I was actually paced was 100'). Not concrete and subjective, I know, but thats all I got.

Any suggestions in what I should use as defense? It looks like he made an error between his notes and the 'Location of Citation' section, doesn't it?

Any help would be greatly appreciated as this is my first TBD and am on the verge of earning a point .

[I_Got_Banned]

Originally Posted by screenname

Hello all,

I was cited back in November for speeding (87mph) in Downtown LA. I was entering the 110S freeway via the 5S corkscrew and was heading towards the 10W. I had no idea that the posted limit from the 110S/101 junction is 55mph. I was cited near the 10W transition and pulled off onto the Washington exit.

The citation was issued by a LAPD motorcycle officer at 5:20AM. Here is how my citation reads:

"22349 B VC Paced 87/55 100'
Rear #4 LN 6+SEC LN CHNG
POV #2 LN DRK ST LITE 670

Cited Approx Speed: 85MPH MAX SPEED: 55MPH

LOCATION OF CITATION: 110 S/B #2 LN to #4 LN ADD OLYMPIC"

My dialogue with the officer was limited. I did not admit to speeding, I did not state my speed, I kept quiet expecting to fight the citation. I asked how he assessed my speed and he responded that he paced me. I asked how long he paced me and he said 100'. Now in reading the citation, it seems that he wrote that he paced me for 6+seconds at a distance of 100' behind the vehicle. The only reason I note this is at 87mph, one would cover 127.6 feet per second meaning he paced me for less than 1 second at the assessed speed (if the distance I was actually paced was 100'). Not concrete and subjective, I know, but thats all I got.

Any suggestions in what I should use as defense? It looks like he made an error between his notes and the 'Location of Citation' section, doesn't it?

Any help would be greatly appreciated as this is my first TBD and am on the verge of earning a point .

Are you aware of any vehicle code sections that dictate how long or how far an officer must pace someone prior to pulling them over and citing them? Because I have never been able to come across anything!

Also, typically an officer will visually estimate someone's speed, only to follow it up with a Radar/Laser reading or a pace... or at least that is the procedure they're trained to follow.

Lastly, and in addition to the notations that you referenced and translated in line 2, I see a -> 100' <- at the end of the first line. Considering the fact that those notations will serve as amajor part of his notes about the citation, I would venture to guess that he will testify that he did in fact, and as he stated to you, pace you for 100'... Thereby suggesting that such a distance is indeed sufficent. Don't you think?

I do apologize that this is not much of anything in the way of "help" with filing your TBWD...

You know what, to make up for that I will do this...

Bonus Info-mation: (At no additional cost)

Originally Posted by screenname

I had no idea that the posted limit from the 110S/101 junction is 55mph.

Actually, it is not only through that junction... The 55mph speed limit extends northbound on the 110 Fwy until the 110 terminates at Arroyo Parkway in South Pasadena. And the crazy thing is that 1/2 a mile after passing the 110 / 5 junction, you will see one single speed limit sign... After that, the entire 8 (or so) mile run of the Northbound 110 is unsigned. Same thing with the southbound lanes from Pasadena towards downtown L. A.

Also, if you drive the downtown area a lot, or more specifically LA to OC, I will tell you that the southbound 5 Fwy JSO downtown and from Slauson Ave to Paramount Bl is also a 55mph zone as well... it is properly signed though I know this because "a friend of mine" got cited for 104 in 55 a few years back... Strange thing is, that citation was also issued by LAPD!

[screenname]

Thanks for the response. As I said in my original post, I know its not concrete. I guess my point was that one would think that it would be physcially impossible to make an accurate assessment of speed in less than a second. Subjective, I know.

My main focus now is what types of subpoenas can I bombard the officer with through my TBD to try to delay his response? I was going to hire a lawyer (ellison) who wanted $1700 and said that he would basically do the same thing. Anyone have experience with this? Can you guys think of anything else I can use as my argument?

Also - Does it seem like there is a flaw between his citation notes and the 'Location of Violations'? It seems like he switches the #2 and #4 lanes. Can I site this as being flawed?

[Jim_bo]

Dude... unless the 110 freeway is a two-lane road, your argument is obvious. You were charged with the wrong section of the vehicle code!! The 55mph speed limit is a prima facie speed limit. If he wanted to charge you with exceeding that limit, he should have charged you with 22350. 22349(b) says:

22349(b) Notwithstanding any other provision of law, no person may
drive a vehicle upon a two-lane, undivided highway at a speed greater
than 55 miles per hour ...

The max speed of 55mph is only for two-lane highways. Your argument is simply that you were not on a two lane highway, so 22349(b) is not an applicable section of the vehicle code. Therefore, you are not guilty of the violation you were charged with.

I'm surprised IGB missed that. He and I don't always see eye to eye, but he is normally pretty sharp about things like that.

[screenname]

Gentlemen - you are truly experts in this stuff. I greatly appreciate you taking the time to read this and providing me with excellent information.

My question now is this - do I just explain this in the trial by declaration and send it in? They cannot change the charge, correct? My due date is 4/6/09. When should I send in the TBD form?

Thank you!!!!!!

[Jim_bo]

Originally Posted by screenname

Gentlemen - you are truly experts in this stuff. I greatly appreciate you taking the time to read this and providing me with excellent information.

My question now is this - do I just explain this in the trial by declaration and send it in? They cannot change the charge, correct? My due date is 4/6/09. When should I send in the TBD form?

Thank you!!!!!!

They can change the charge... but only before the arraignment. Do your TBD as soon as you can. Or, you can simply go to court for an arraignment. The date on your ticket is merely a "no later than" date.

[I_Got_Banned]

Originally Posted by Jim_bo

Dude... unless the 110 freeway is a two-lane road, your argument is obvious. You were charged with the wrong section of the vehicle code!! The 55mph speed limit is a prima facie speed limit. If he wanted to charge you with exceeding that limit, he should have charged you with 22350. 22349(b) says:

The max speed of 55mph is only for two-lane highways. Your argument is simply that you were not on a two lane highway, so 22349(b) is not an applicable section of the vehicle code. Therefore, you are not guilty of the violation you were charged with.

Excellent point Jim, however, the OP stated:

Originally Posted by screenname

I was entering the 110S freeway via the 5S corkscrew and was heading towards the 10W. I had no idea that the posted limit from the 110S/101 junction is 55mph. I was cited near the 10W transition

If I understand him correctly and if I recall correctly that the transition road from the 5 Fwy which later splits into the 110s/101 is in fact only 2 lanes (and even though there might be an advisory sign of 35mph) the 55mph speed limit might still carry over through the transition road... There is the possibility that the officer might raise the argument that the OP was on a 2 lane highway.

What do you think?

Originally Posted by Jim_bo

I'm surprised IGB missed that. He and I don't always see eye to eye, but he is normally pretty sharp about things like that.

Why thank you Jim, I think I was distracted by my own... oops, "my friend's" 104mph in 55 mph zone citation around that same area... Nevertheless, I do appreciate the compliment.

[I_Got_Banned]

Originally Posted by Jim_bo

They can change the charge... but only before the arraignment. Do your TBD as soon as you can. Or, you can simply go to court for an arraignment. The date on your ticket is merely a "no later than" date.

I noticed that the citation was given in November. I think if it was gonna be amended it would have already been shortly before or at the time it was filed in court.

[Zigner]

Originally Posted by I_Got_Banned

Also, if you drive the downtown area a lot, or more specifically LA to OC, I will tell you that the southbound 5 Fwy JSO downtown and from Slauson Ave to Paramount Bl is also a 55mph zone as well... it is properly signed though I know this because "a friend of mine" got cited for 104 in 55 a few years back... Strange thing is, that citation was also issued by LAPD!

From personal experience (driving it practically every week-day for 10+ years), the 55 zone starts right about Broadway and extends to the bridge just past Slauson

[I_Got_Banned]

Originally Posted by Zigner

From personal experience (driving it practically every week-day for 10+ years), the 55 zone starts right about Broadway and extends to the bridge just past Slauson

Are you saying "Broadway' as in downtown L A Broadway"?

Also, the bridge just past Slauson IS Paramount Blvd, isn't it?

[Zigner]

Originally Posted by I_Got_Banned

Are you saying "Broadway' as in downtown L A Broadway"?

Also, the bridge just past Slauson IS Paramount Blvd, isn't it?

It's not in downtown (although it's probably the same street). Just past the 110 as you go under the overpass.
(An interesting tidbit, if you take the Broadway exit lane but continue on the 5 south, there is actually a stretch if about 1/4 mile where the mainline is 55 but the merging traffic is still 65. Just bad placement of signs )

And the bridge just past Slauson goes over the riverbed(s) - basically right where the oncoming traffic from Slauson merges in. Paramount's a bit further down...

Of course, during "normal drive-time hours", you'll never get going fast enough for it to matter anyway!

[screenname]

There used to be a SPEED LIMIT 55 sign posted on the left AND right pillars of the 110/101 interchange sign. If you guys have noticed lately, because of HEAVY graffiti on the left hand sign, it has been removed and there is only a speed limit sign on the right post hidden behind some bushes.

POS signs!

Thanks for all of your help everyone! I tried to get a court date but the earliest is in July. Should I do the TBD or get a court date in July and handle this in person? I'm afraid they will change the charge once they see my TBD since there won't be much I can do about proving the timing of the change?

[I_Got_Banned]

Originally Posted by Zigner

An interesting tidbit, if you take the Broadway exit lane but continue on the 5 south, there is actually a stretch if about 1/4 mile where the mainline is 55 but the merging traffic is still 65. Just bad placement of signs

And the bridge just past Slauson goes over the riverbed(s) - basically right where the oncoming traffic from Slauson merges in. Paramount's a bit further down...

Of course, during "normal drive-time hours", you'll never get going fast enough for it to matter anyway!

I'd say that's more than a "tidbit" for our purposes here because that is exactly what I meant by "transition" in my comments above. Not the exact transition but one that is designed and implemented the same way relative to its speed limit.

Whether that would fit the definition of a "highway" (as per 22349) is up to the officer to attempt and for the court to deem as proper. I think that unless there are other signs showing another speed limit, that assumption is valid.

Lastly, and although I realize that this is not where screenname was cited but the 110 northbound out of downtown L A and the 110 southbound into downtown LA are both 2 lane highways!

Originally Posted by Zigner

And the bridge just past Slauson goes over the riverbed(s) -

Aahhh, yes, the Los Angeles river!!!

Originally Posted by Zigner

Of course, during "normal drive-time hours", you'll never get going fast enough for it to matter anyway!

Would you consider 5:20pm on a non-holiday Tuesday afternoon "normal drive time hours"? If so, wanna bet someone can?

[Jim_bo]

I think the OP stated the location as described on the ticket was:

LOCATION OF CITATION: 110 S/B #2 LN to #4 LN ADD OLYMPIC"

I can only interpret #2ln to #4ln as being a multilane highway. Now, if the cop actually saw the OP speeding on a 2 lane transition... that is irrelevant. The charge was that he was S/B on the 110.

[I_Got_Banned]

Originally Posted by screenname

There used to be a SPEED LIMIT 55 sign posted on the left AND right pillars of the 110/101 interchange sign. If you guys have noticed lately, because of HEAVY graffiti on the left hand sign, it has been removed and there is only a speed limit sign on the right post hidden behind some bushes.

I really highly doubt that a sign posting a speed limit on a major freeway through Downtown L A would be removed and not replaced unless there are other signs that still maintain regulatory standards for that stretch.
If you say the only other sign is hidden, take a picture and either submit it with your TBD or take it to court with you when you go in to fight your citation.
My guess is that there are other signs nearby as well.

Originally Posted by screenname

I tried to get a court date but the earliest is in July.

It is my understanding that this court date would actually only be your arraignment (yes, they are that behind on allowing each defendant 20 seconds to plead "guilty" or "not guilty"). It is also my understanding that you can also plead "not guilty", post bail, and request a trial date with the clerk and assuming you have not previously waived your right to a speedy trial, then your trial date must be set within a 45 day period from the date you entered your plea.

Originally Posted by screenname

I'm afraid they will change the charge once they see my TBD

Here is how I see it.
Phase 1 to amend a charge: A charge can be amended at the point in time after the officer issues it and just before it is filed with the court which typically happens within 10 day after it is issued. Once it is filed in court, it is all but forgotten by the officer unless and until you plead "no guilty" and he is notified of that and has to appear in court, OR until he received a request to file his TBD statement. But in both of those 2 cases, he has to proceed forward with the existing charge.
Phase 2 to amend a charge: Now let's assume that a "not guilty" verdict is rendered, whether it be through a court trial or by a decision on a TBD, the officer can still re-file the charge citing you for the same violation but under a different vehicle code section although that very rarely happens.
You have already escaped phase 1, and although phase 2 s unlikely, you will go through it regardless of which way you proceed.
However, your fear that they will amend the charge once they see your TBD is unfounded. The officer has to file his response based upon the original charge which you filed your TBD about.

Originally Posted by screenname

since there won't be much I can do about proving the timing of the change?

Not sure what you mean by this but I will still say this the timing of the charge began when the citation was issued. That is stated on your citation.