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PA speeding ticket

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raypa

Junior Member
What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Pennsylvania

I just got pulled over supposedly doing 48.49 in 25mph. I'm not saying I wasn't exceeding the 25mph, but no way was doing 50mph.

Ticket:
Robic SC-808
Timing device operator: PAPE
Miles timed: .026
Secs. timed: 1.93
Speed equipment JT-3
Station Equip. Tested W60
Date Equip Tested 11.1.11

Now, my first though is that 0.026miles is 137.5feet. Isn't that a little odd? Aren't speed traps usually around 100 to 150 feet? I don't know if there are lines on the road or not. I have to look.

I'm going to fight it just because the officer was very arrogant when he pulled me over and told me to hurry up and sign the ticket before I even had a chance to read it.

Any suggestions? Doesn't the any official distance in the state of pa have to be measured by a licensed surveyor?
thanks,
Ray
 
Last edited:


FlyingRon

Senior Member
The signature is just to acknowledge you received it. You're not expected to read the thing (in fact there is nothing related to the signature to read), just acknowledge receipt.

Robic is a glorified stopwatch.
I'm not sure why you're bent over 137 versus 100 or 150. They've measured the course and that's what it is.

No there is no official distance.
No it doesn't need to be measured by a surveyor.

Maestro might come buy with some better strategies.
 

raypa

Junior Member
I'm not bent over the distance. It is just odd. It calculates to 137.5'. I'm going to look for lines today. I'm just looking at that if the lines are 100' which is more common around here, that puts me at 35mph which is where I believe I was.

When you say it doesn't need to be measured by a surveyor, what is you basis for that statement. If it is an official measurement, punishable by a fine, legally in pa only a survey with a license in the state can perform the measurement. If they use mail boxes or poles as a start and stop point rather than lines on the road, doesn't that open up the start and stop point for interpretation?
 

FlyingRon

Senior Member
I'm not bent over the distance. It is just odd. It calculates to 137.5'. I'm going to look for lines today. I'm just looking at that if the lines are 100' which is more common around here, that puts me at 35mph which is where I believe I was.

When you say it doesn't need to be measured by a surveyor, what is you basis for that statement. If it is an official measurement, punishable by a fine, legally in pa only a survey with a license in the state can perform the measurement. If they use mail boxes or poles as a start and stop point rather than lines on the road, doesn't that open up the start and stop point for interpretation?
There's no reason it has to be exact multiples of 50. The pick the points and measure it. The .5 most likely comes from the fact that the ROBIC only lets you put in two digits to the right of the decimal and values get rounded off. Yes, this does lead to errors, but the Pa statutes also keep you from being written up unless you're more than 6 over for reasons like this.

I don't know where you're getting the requirement from the licensed surveyor, but since you seem to know everything, you don't need our help. Have fun in court.
 

raypa

Junior Member
FlyingRon,

All you have done is commented on my post with no advice or input other than your "opinion". I don't know everything hence the reason I'm asking. If you can't provide useful information, please respond to someone else's post. I can do without your input or lack there of.
 

raypa

Junior Member
I drove past the lines on the road today. Now that I know there are line does anyone know why they would be 137.5' apart rather than some more round number?

I'm actually going to measure the line to verify that is actually the distance. Normally I would just pay the fine but I know I was not doubling the speed limit.

Thanks.
 

FlyingRon

Senior Member
.026 miles can be anything from 134 feet to 139 feet. It's not opinion, it's a fact. Robic can't enter more accurate numbers than that.

If you just want to sit around and insult me when I gave you the answers. It's not OPINION. But since you have all the answers, and you just abuse anybody with a contrary opinion, fat chance that the two real experts on PA will be here to help you.
 
.026 miles can be anything from 134 feet to 139 feet. It's not opinion, it's a fact. Robic can't enter more accurate numbers than that.

If you just want to sit around and insult me when I gave you the answers. It's not OPINION. But since you have all the answers, and you just abuse anybody with a contrary opinion, fat chance that the two real experts on PA will be here to help you.
Isn't the Robic SC808 just a stopwatch?
Rebco Performance Online -- Instructions "Robic SC-808 Stopwatch - P/N 3108922"

....Distance is entered as the decimal equivalent of a mile or
kilometer from 000.001 to 999.999. For example, enter 2 ½
miles/kilometers as 002.500, 1/3 as 000.333, 1/8 as 000.125,
etc.....from link


The speed the cops says is 48.49 MPH, which is 4 significant figures but the cop only had 3 sig figures on his time and only 2 sig figures on the distance.. so his math is not proper. It puts his training into serious question. The proper results, mathematically, would have been 48 MPH, not 48.49 MPH. While many might consider the difference as a non-issue, it really is an issue...an issue of training.

Also, what is the operator to operator error in these types of measurements?

The issue with the OP is that its about 2x the speed limit. Hence the need to attack the training of the cop.
 

raypa

Junior Member
startedone,
Thanks for the insight. I have a typo on my original post.
The ticket states :
Miles timed: .026

The ticket did not have 0.026.
On line 25 Speeding 48 mph Allowed 25
On line 62 (remarks) Actual - 48.49 mph

So are you suggesting that I have a leg to stand on here? What are your views on the actual distance itself?

Thanks!
 
startedone,
Thanks for the insight. I have a typo on my original post.
The ticket states :
Miles timed: .026

The ticket did not have 0.026.
On line 25 Speeding 48 mph Allowed 25
On line 62 (remarks) Actual - 48.49 mph

So are you suggesting that I have a leg to stand on here? What are your views on the actual distance itself?

Thanks!
I have a bigger concern that the operator to operator error of this specific test method could be 50-75%. This because of several factors including that the stopwatch operator is not near the lines where they click on & off. It makes this method highly suspect. But the issue for you is to bring this to a positive viewpoint of a judge who (correctly) will only listen to a) judicial notice or b) experts. You can certainly cross the cop as to his angle of view & possible errors and the court will take notice of admitted errors.

The training of the cop can be attacked (w/o training -no conviction) & getting it noted that the cop is not an expert will help.

Do a google scholar search & learn more about the judicial notice of this method ... it maybe that stopwatches need to be noticed as well (and this requires expert testimony, an actual expert, not paperwork). Post back with google scholar references or links ...
 
2004 PA Super 152
COMMONWEALTH OF PENNSYLVANIA
v.
NECHAMA KAUFMAN, Appellant.
No. 1450 Eastern District Appeal 2003.

Superior Court of Pennsylvania.
Filed: May 3, 2004.


from google scholar .. interesting case
 
Under 75 Pa.C.S. § 3368(c)(1) and § 3368(c)(3), the Department has approved the use of electronic and mechanical stopwatches as speed-timing devices for use by any police officer. The Department has approved these speed-timing devices upon submission of a certificate of stopwatch accuracy indicating that a stopwatch has been successfully tested in accordance with the requirements of 67 Pa. Code, Chapter 105, Mechanical, Electrical and Electronic Speed-Timing Devices. The Department issues an approved speed-timing device certificate for the device, as required by section 105.72. The Department does not publish a listing of these approved speed-timing devices because they are approved individually by serial number and police department. Therefore, if a citation is contested, it is necessary for the police department to show both the certificate of stopwatch accuracy which was issued within 60 days of the citation and an approved speed-timing device certificate issued by the Department of Transportation, Bureau of Motor Vehicles.


from: PA Bulletin, Doc. No. 96-495

So the state will need to issue an approval certificate via their Dept. of Transportation .. beyond that of the cert. of cal. from the manufacturer with is also required .... as noted above

If they do not admit these before the officer's testimony then this is a violation of the need to lay a proper foundation .. a simple objection is all that is needed.
 

raypa

Junior Member
So you are saying that if the officer does not provide original documents of certification of the robic timing device, then I can contest this?

Also with the distance calculating 137.5', if the officer rounded his numbers to enter the data into the robic, could I contest this? Or is this allowable?

I'm not really upset with the $, I just don't want any points on my record, especially 4.

Thanks again!!
 

FlyingRon

Senior Member
So you are saying that if the officer does not provide original documents of certification of the robic timing device, then I can contest this?

Also with the distance calculating 137.5', if the officer rounded his numbers to enter the data into the robic, could I contest this? Or is this allowable?

I'm not really upset with the $, I just don't want any points on my record, especially 4.

Thanks again!!
No you can't contest the rounding.

You can contest:

1. If the distance is incorrect (have you measured it yet?)
2. If the device hasn't been calibrated in 60 days (though it appears it has based on what you posted)

That's about it.
 

raypa

Junior Member
Ron, Thanks for the input, I think you and I just had a typical non emotional typing mis-understanding in the begining there. And I do appriciate your input.

I have my measuring wheel in the truck and am stopping by tonight to measure the lines.

I was also reading on another board and someone there goes on and on about reaction time for the officer and the distances being too short. I kind of agree that recording something in 1.93 seconds is fairly tricky. Especially in that short distance.
I seen that Mestro commented on that board also. Are you still around to chime in on this?
 

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