PA Stop sign- I stopped! He couldn't see!

[nancytaylor]

Pennsylvania.

While I was taking my daughter to school, I came up to a Four-way stop sign near my home. Another car was also approaching to my left. I stopped, let the other car go, then I went. A half mile later, I was pulled over by a township officer who gave me a ticket for running the stop sign.

The thing is, there is a large 20 foot high hedge row of trees along the roa that he was hiding behind. If you stop ten or fifteen feet behind the stop sign, your car is totally hidden from where the officer was sitting. I couldn't see him when I stopped. Therefore, he couldn't possibly see me.

The stop sign is on a steep slope downhill. Take your foot off the brake and your car accelerates fast. By the time I was passing the stop sign, I was back up to the 25 mph speed limit. From the officer's limited POV, I shot through the stop sign.

Another factor is that I believe this stop sign is non-conforming. It's a four way stop at an intersection with minimal traffic count. It was originally placed there to slow cars down. Since then, they've added speed bumps. The 4-way is totally irrelevent now, and is just a money maker for the local police.

Do I have a chance in court?

Thanks,

Nancy

[Happy Trails]

Originally Posted by nancytaylor

Pennsylvania.

While I was taking my daughter to school, I came up to a Four-way stop sign near my home. Another car was also approaching to my left. I stopped, let the other car go, then I went. A half mile later, I was pulled over by a township officer who gave me a ticket for running the stop sign.

The thing is, there is a large 20 foot high hedge row of trees along the roa that he was hiding behind. If you stop ten or fifteen feet behind the stop sign, your car is totally hidden from where the officer was sitting. ***Why are you stopping 10-15 feet behind the stop sign? I couldn't see him when I stopped. Therefore, he couldn't possibly see me. ***You don't know what the officer could see, the officer was hiding and looking for violators.

The stop sign is on a steep slope downhill. Take your foot off the brake and your car accelerates fast. By the time I was passing the stop sign, I was back up to the 25 mph speed limit. ***I have to repeat what you wrote, because it's worth repeating. "By the time I was passing the stop sign, I was back up to the 25 mph speed limit." From the officer's limited POV, I shot through the stop sign. ***That would be my POV as well, and I wasn't even there.

Another factor is that I believe this stop sign is non-conforming. It's a four way stop at an intersection with minimal traffic count. It was originally placed there to slow cars down. Since then, they've added speed bumps. The 4-way is totally irrelevent now, and is just a money maker for the local police.

Do I have a chance in court?

Thanks,

Nancy

What kind of chance do you want in court? Clearly you ran the stop sign at 25 mph.

[nancytaylor]

What is wrong with stopping 10 or fifteen feet before a stop sign? I can't find anything in PA law that says you must stop at the exact plane that crosses the stop sign. That would be ridiculous. Everybody would be a law-breaker everyday.

I could understand that stopping beyond a stop sign would be unsafe. But stopping before it? What is unsafe in any way by doing that?

The stop sign itself is positioned on a one lane dirt road on the right. The intersecting street on the left is 4 car widths wide. If you stop with your car's nose at the exact plane of the stop sign on the dirt road, you are then beyond the corner of the intersecting road. That is unsafe.

Everybody that stops at that stop sign stops exactly where I did. Seems to me there must be a problem with the sign.

The cop positioned himself to take advantage of a poorly configured intersection. It's your classic money making trap. Meanwhile, 4 blocks away cars are zipping by my house 30 or 40 miles over the limit with no cops anywhere. It's this kind of action that makes you lose all respect for police.

[jity]

Originally Posted by nancytaylor

Pennsylvania.

...Another factor is that I believe this stop sign is non-conforming. It's a four way stop at an intersection with minimal traffic count. It was originally placed there to slow cars down. Since then, they've added speed bumps. The 4-way is totally irrelevent now, and is just a money maker for the local police.

Do I have a chance in court?

Thanks,

Nancy

Despite what you belive of if a stop sign should be there or not, it's still a stop sign and it still holds the same power of if it should or shouldn't be there

Go to count and fight it - it's your word agaist his. If this happens, as you say frequently - then videotape the intersection with him pulling other people who stop and was charged which would be a VERY GOOD DEFENSE. You can not use the defense of that he could not see me because I could not see him. If you really believe this take a picture of where the police car actually sat looking at the stop sign/intersection.

[Happy Trails]

Originally Posted by nancytaylor

What is wrong with stopping 10 or fifteen feet before a stop sign? I can't find anything in PA law that says you must stop at the exact plane that crosses the stop sign. That would be ridiculous. Everybody would be a law-breaker everyday.

I could understand that stopping beyond a stop sign would be unsafe. But stopping before it? What is unsafe in any way by doing that?

The stop sign itself is positioned on a one lane dirt road on the right. The intersecting street on the left is 4 car widths wide. If you stop with your car's nose at the exact plane of the stop sign on the dirt road, you are then beyond the corner of the intersecting road. That is unsafe.

Everybody that stops at that stop sign stops exactly where I did. Seems to me there must be a problem with the sign.

The cop positioned himself to take advantage of a poorly configured intersection. It's your classic money making trap. Meanwhile, 4 blocks away cars are zipping by my house 30 or 40 miles over the limit with no cops anywhere. It's this kind of action that makes you lose all respect for police.

The following is from the Pennsylvania driving manual:
When you see a crosswalk or a stop line, stop before the front of your car reaches the painted line. If you cannot see traffic, yield to any pedestrians, then carefully pull forward past the line until you can see clearly. Stop, check for traffic and pedestrians, then go ahead when the intersection is clear.

You didn't carefully pull forward, you just cruised right on through. If the intersection has a 20 foot high hedge row of trees, then it is your responsibility to approach the intersection carefully and by the law. If that meant using your brake again then that is what you should have done.

[nancytaylor]

The hedge row is along the intersecting road, not on the road I was on. It ends 40 feet from the main road. From where I stopped, there were absolutely no obstructions to see that the intersection was clear. The hedge row is what the cop was hiding behind. He could not see the intersection clearly because his car was 100' back and up against the hedges.

How does one define stopping? I stopped where I had a clear view of the intersection. I could see clearly that there were no cars at or anywhere near the intersection. Then I drove on.

Where does it say that the nose of your car must be in perfect alignment with the stop sign?

I don't know how you can possibly stop before a stop sign without then driving through it.

Do we have laws to make the world safer, or to find technicalities to make honest citizens into crime breakers?

[Happy Trails]

Originally Posted by nancytaylor

The hedge row is along the intersecting road, not on the road I was on. It ends 40 feet from the main road. From where I stopped, there were absolutely no obstructions to see that the intersection was clear. The hedge row is what the cop was hiding behind. He could not see the intersection clearly because his car was 100' back and up against the hedges.

How does one define stopping? ***To halt the motion or progress. I stopped where I had a clear view of the intersection. ***Not good enough. I could see clearly that there were no cars at or anywhere near the intersection. Then I drove on. ***With your way of thinking, do you think it would have been okay to stop in the middle of the block and then procede through if the coast is clear?

Where does it say that the nose of your car must be in perfect alignment with the stop sign? ***It doesn't say perfect alignment. It says stop before the front of your car reaches the painted line.
I don't know how you can possibly stop before a stop sign without then driving through it. ***Don't be trying to complicate it with non-sense. You went through at 25mph, that clearly shows you were too far back and got a run at it.

Do we have laws to make the world safer, or to find technicalities to make honest citizens into crime breakers?

I understand you're upset. But this wasn't a technicality, you should have stopped closer to the stop sign as the rule book states.

Live and learn.

[nancytaylor]

Half a block back from a stop sign, and less then a car length are not the same thing!

What good does nitpicking the law do for society?

Is that the real purpose of police? -To hassle people at a meaningless stop sign where the traffic count doesn't even come close to the required 500 vehicles per hour for a stop sign to exist.

Or does that just demean the police in the public's eyes?

[Happy Trails]

Originally Posted by nancytaylor

Half a block back from a stop sign, and less then a car length are not the same thing!

What good does nitpicking the law do for society?

Is that the real purpose of police? -To hassle people at a meaningless stop sign where the traffic count doesn't even come close to the required 500 vehicles per hour for a stop sign to exist.

Or does that just demean the police in the public's eyes?

If you think you have a case then fight the ticket.

Good luck.

[Tori8]

Hi. I'm not a police officer or a judge but am going through a similar situation in Pa. Are you more worried about the points than the fine itself? If so i'll tell you the advice I got from a friend of mine who's a police officer. He told me to call the officer who ticketed me at the police station and ask him if I were to show up to court if he would work with me to reduce the points. So I did just that and the officer told me to come find him beforehand and we'll agree to reduce the violation to one that carries the same fine with no points. If you have a perfect driving record that would definately help, b/c that's the angle I went with. Hopefully this helps. (ps I know what you mean about stop signs and i've gotten honked at, flashed at, sworn at, and i've noticed everyone around me not coming to complete stops at stop signs, it's infuriating. But it's the law and who am I to complain.)

[nancytaylor]

Worse then the points, and the fine, is that my daughter has lost a great deal of respect for the police. She is also certain that I did stop. In fact, I sat there and waited for the car at the other stop sign to finally go. She can't understand why the police would waste their time to set up a trap to catch law-abiding citizens when meanwhile cars speed down our street in front of our house at the same time of day doing 40 miles over the limit. It's a risk backing out of my driveway each day.

Why so we have police? To protect us? Or to hassle us?

[Happy Trails]

Originally Posted by nancytaylor

Worse then the points, and the fine, is that my daughter has lost a great deal of respect for the police. She is also certain that I did stop. In fact, I sat there and waited for the car at the other stop sign to finally go. She can't understand why the police would waste their time to set up a trap to catch law-abiding citizens when meanwhile cars speed down our street in front of our house at the same time of day doing 40 miles over the limit. It's a risk backing out of my driveway each day.

Why so we have police? To protect us? Or to hassle us?

So here's what you do. When you go to court to fight the ticket, bring your daughter with you. Then the Judge can explain to the officer that a person can stop at a stop sign any where they like and then go through the intersection at 25mph.

So you can pay the fine or fight it.

[fedcop110]

This is a little off topic but here goes...You may have run the stop sign you may not have, I don't know I wasn't there. I am more concerned about your statement that your daughter has lost respect for the police due to this incident.

This is the same thing that happens when I walk into the local 7-11 and the parent is talking to their young child that has been acting up, saying "Here come the police, if you don't start acting right they will take you to jail." The police do not terrorize law abiding citizens, we make mistakes, and yes there are officers that will abuse their authority. But I think it was said best by one of those emails floating around, "If you don't want to go to jail, don't commit a crime."

I don't know how old your daughter is but from your post it sounds like she may be in her teens. If that is the case, she is probably old enough where this is not an issue, but if you feel so strongly that the officer was wrong why not explain to her that police officers make mistakes too. I personally don't want my children growing up afraid to talk to a police officer if they need assistance.

O.K. I think I'm done.

I also don't know the conditions in your neighborhood but if the officer was sitting on the side of the road he may have been on some sort of stationary traffic enforcement, or he may have simply been filling out paperwork. You asked why the officer wasn't watching for vehicles speeding on your street. Maybe he was watching for vehicles speeding on this street.

If it's so bad on your street, I would contact the police dept. and ask for increased speed enforcement at the high traffic times. The Dept. may not be familiar with this specific problem.

[nancytaylor]

We (and our neighbors) have asked the police to patrol on our street, especially when kids are getting on/off school busses. Their response was to put a speed recording device on the road to see if their was a problem. Someone stole the recording device that night. Then they out a sign that uses radar and flashes your speed as you go by. They put it at the bottom of a long hill. You could literally see it a mile away. Of course nobody was speeding when they finally passed by it. But the police didn't see it that way. Their response was that less then 20% were more then 10 mph over the limit, so that didn't meet their criteria.

It would be different if this were the only time something like this happened to me or my husband. I got cited before for failing to stop at a stop sign. The sign was totally hidden by a tree in full bloom and somebody's trash pile. I mean, totally hidden! While I was being written up, several more cars drove right through it, oblivious that it was there.

My husband and I were ticketed while heading out of town on our honeymoon. At that particular moment, I had just told my new husband to look for a place to pull over because I felt like I was going to throw up (too much celebrating, I guess). He was going about 40-45 looking for a safe spot when we passed the radar trap. We got written up for doing 80 in a 65 zone! Nice wedding present.

My husband got a ticket for failure to stop at a stop sign when he stopped just beyond it. Like my ticket, it was an unpopulated, wooded rural road where the "T" intersection was oddly shaped. The spot he stopped is where everyone stops, even police cars I have often observed, because that is the only place to see the intersecting street (through the trees), which meets at a very acute angle. It's a nice money-maker for the police dept. They milked that one for years until they stopped the wrong person, and the stop sign was finally moved up to where it should have been placed.

Since he got ticketed for stopping beyond a stop sign, i always make certain I stop before it. Now I'm being ticketed for that.

I have seen the same policeman at my stop sign on several mornings, pulling over people. it's obvious that he is exploiting the situation. Meanwhile, I watch kids racing across the streets in the morning near my daughter's school trying not to get hit by people ignoring the school zone signs, and this cop is sitting on a rural road where nobody lives, at an intersection with a dead end dirt road that's only 100 feet long. There is no traffic hazard. The stop signs exist only to slow speeders down before they pass through the townhouses a quarter mile down the road.

It infuriates me that the police exploit these situations as money-makers by giving people tickets for doing nothing that is in any way causing a hazard, while there are known hazards where they are doing nothing to protect us.

I believe laws are made to protect people. That is their most important intent. When they are used only to harass law abiding citizens who are being safe and considerate in their actions, then the laws are not being used as they were intended. And that's a shame.

[nancytaylor]

Just got back from Traffic Court.

I won.

I showed the judge photos of the scene of the crime- the intersection at the stop sign. The officer pointed out on the photos where he was sitting. I then showed the judge photos shot from his exact POV. In the photo, my car was sitting about 1/2 a car-length from the stop sign, but could not be seen due to the hedgerow beside the officer.

I then showed the judge photos from my POV, from which I could see the intersecting road all the way to its end.

He agreed that I did nothing unsafe. He said that stopping within a car length before the stop sign was certainly sufficient, and the officer had no way of knowing from his POV if I had or had not stopped within that distance.

Case dismissed!

My faith in the system is restored- to some extent.