Photo speeding ticket in Renton, WA

[tazzer]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? WA

I recently got a photo ticket for speeding in a school zone. I wasn't driving the car at the time - a friend had my car for the day. However, I got the ticket since the car is registered in my name.

The Renton Municipal Court website states that the driver of the vehicle is not photographed, so I guess they have no pictures of who was actually driving the car. WA also treats photo tickets as a parking violation so it does not go on the driving record.

I called the court and spoke to a clerk. I told her I was not the person driving and she insisted I would have to tell them who the driver was, or else pay up. I have decided to contest the ticket, but don't know if they will force me to name my friend at the hearing. I read on highwayrobbery.net that the law does not require me to state the name of the driver...

My question is will the Not Guilty - Identity plea be sufficient to have the ticket dismissed? I don't know if the school zone light was flashing at the time or not, and will be stopping by the school on my way home today to find out. Other than that, I don't know what other defense to use...

Any help is appreciated!

[racer72]

As luck would have it I left work early a few weeks ago and attended a court session in Renton to kill some time. There were a couple folks in the same predicument as you. The judge gave them 2 options, pay up or squeal. Couple of other things. Highwayrobbery.net applies to California laws. In Washington the registered owner can be held liable for a vehicle involved with photo tickets. Second, today is not a school day, the school zone lights will not be operating. I work in Renton, its a good thing I watch my speed in school zones.

The last post the judge giving two options; pay or squeel. Traffic infractions in WA state are not criminal. WA decriminized most traffic infractions in 1981!

From Washington State District Court website;

Frequently Asked Questions
What is an infraction?
In 1981, the Legislature decriminalized many minor traffic offenses to promote public safety and to facilitate the implementation of a uniform and expeditious system for the disposition of such offenses. Common traffic infractions are speeding, seat belt and liability insurance violations. Since 1989, other types of minor offenses have been decriminalized, including certain parks, wildlife, and fisheries offenses. These offenses are called infractions and are considered civil cases.

Both mitigation options on a ticket are really the same thing. Gain enough information that you received the ticket and they have enough "evidence" to win a civil judgement at any future trial. The reason the photo tickets do not take pictures of the driver, they could not hold the registered owner liable if they had picture evidence of another person. These tickets do not go on your driver's license record. So no license suspension for failure to respond or comply and not paying! Not much they can do other than suspend your ability to register and therefore use a car in your name on the roads********************************************************.

You might want to check with a lawyer on this before going to a mitigation hearing that is not a court precided over by a "judge".

[racer72]

These tickets do not go on your driver's license record. So no license suspension for failure to respond or comply and not paying!

Wrong. The ticket will not go on one's driving record if taken care of in time, but if someone ignores the ticket, a warrant will be issued against the registered owner's driver's license. What this means is if the OP is pulled over, he will be arrested, taken to jail then taken before a judge. The first thing the judge will do is suspend the persons privelige to drive till the ticket is paid. Also, because the vehicle owner failed to identify another driver if that was the case, he will be automatically found guilty. What will end up on the OP's driving record will be the license suspension. If not pulled over, the warrant will show up the next time he tries to renew his license. This is one of the reasons a valid driver's license is now required to register a car in the state of Washington.

Originally Posted by racer72

Wrong. The ticket will not go on one's driving record if taken care of in time, but if someone ignores the ticket, a warrant will be issued against the registered owner's driver's license. What this means is if the OP is pulled over, he will be arrested, taken to jail then taken before a judge. The first thing the judge will do is suspend the persons privelige to drive till the ticket is paid. Also, because the vehicle owner failed to identify another driver if that was the case, he will be automatically found guilty. What will end up on the OP's driving record will be the license suspension. If not pulled over, the warrant will show up the next time he tries to renew his license. This is one of the reasons a valid driver's license is now required to register a car in the state of Washington.

You have no clue of the procedure that the Department Of licensing uses when a court has notified them that someone has failed to "respond, appear, pay, or comply" with the terms of a traffic citiation. Traffic citiation's in Washington State are civil not criminal so no warrent of arrest can be issued. Ever read or herd about City of Redmond v. Moore, 151 Wn.2d 664, 667, 91 P.3d 875 (2004). ruling by the Washington State Supreme Court?

Besides this is a photo camera ticket, not a regular police officer in person deal.

[flarityj]

Hi All:

First post to this forum. Not sure who is giving the free advice, which seems quite variable.

I have a friend who just received similar photo ticket in a Renton School zone. These things seem to be getting quite popular here in WA. Lots of complicated issues in this case I would like to sort out:

1) Real parking tickets are issued by officers and attached (served?) to the car. I don't understand how the letter with a photo constitutes "service". The courts should be required to follow the same procedures as the rest of us. You should get a registered letter or be personally served a summons to Renton. This is a key point that could be used to stop Renton in its tracks. I know it is effective against Auburn, who hired private companies to collect the easy money from photo infractions. Of course, if you call the court about it, you have made a record that service is complete.

2) How can Renton call speeding in a school zone, a potentially deadly offense, a parking ticket? It seems to break a basic tenant of law and common sense. Why not charge drunk drivers with some other minor infraction because it makes it easier on the court? You would think the supreme court would stop it.

3) And if you do end up in their court, what gives them the right to avoid the 5th amendment? They should prove the identity of the driver or toss it. Your contested reaction should be all you have to say. I shouldn'd have to "remember" who it was and relieve them of the burden. It could be my wife, who I can't be forced to testify against anyway.


This is just a money making venture for Renton and many other places. If it was important, a cop would be in the school zone writing real tickets. We need a strategy to cut the process out at its roots. I would think the DOL does not want to spend its own money collecting a check for Renton, so I would start there. If you ignore it, the DOL is probably going to want the money when you renew your tabs. There is probably some magic legal clause to lay on the DOL when they ask for Renton's money. They want the tab money and could use any excuse to toss Renton's claim.

joe

[Maestro64]

Now you know why these kinds of activities in this country are coming under lots of debate.

We see it all the time, a law is past and the private sector finds a loop hole and uses it to their advantage. Now a days we have local governments finding loop holes in the laws and using them to their advantage. The problem is WA has made it extremely easy, by making all traffic infraction a civil offense so the burden of proof is far less and they do not always have to follow due process and your rights are different under those laws.

As it was pointed out, pay up, rat someone out, or loose your license. It basic blackmail and intimidation. If this was criminal matter this would not be allowed. Welcome to the Spanish Inquisition and Salem Witch hunts 21st Century Style . They hold all the card, and are not required to provide any proof.

[LSCAP]

I think it is ridiculous to fight this kind of ticket. It doesn’t go on your license as a speeding violation, so what’s the big deal.
They could have made the law an offense against the driver and though it would be tougher to collect, they would have to try. And more people would lose licenses because of it. and insurance rates would rise etc.
They want your money. That it!

The local newspaper said words to the effect, “It’s amazing how many people suddenly speed, when the local area has a “crack down” on speeders. (IE money drive.)

Be glad they don’t use the photo, get a violation on your license, way.

[flarityj]

1. $130 is most of a day's take home pay.
2. I may actually be not guilty of any wrongdoing.
3. The city is counting on you making this easy for them.
4. I am not Patrick Henry, but I do feel some "duty" to the founding fathers and my fellow citizens to resist this intrusion.

I was looking for advice on what to do myself and what to tell others to do. I would pay my lawyer before I paid Renton. She has been 100% effective against all tickets. But she beats state patrol cops who wrote real tickets and it seems overkill for photo tickets.

The solution should be as easy as the problem, otherwise it is not effective. Reagon learned this during the "Star Wars" missile defence project.

[flarityj]

Here is a great website link on beating photo tickets. We need one like that for WA. Any comments on how accurate this information is--in Arizona?

[url=http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/266477/how_to_beat_the_photo_ticket_system.html?cat=17]How to Beat the Photo Ticket System - Associated Content[/url]

I still have not come to grips with the service issue. A real parking ticket was "served". I am thinking you should be able to throw anything away in the mail (except certified). Until you have been served, they are just asking for donations.

Also, being from Texas, I get plenty of real tickets in conservative WA, but not a single photo ticket yet! Could that PHOTO BLOCKER spay I used really work? Somebody told me a "Myth Busters" episode said it didn't.

[url=http://www.phantomplate.com/photoblocker.html]No More Red Light Camera Tickets. Make Your Car Invisible To Police Speed Cameras With Our License Plate Cover, PhotoBlocker Spray, Radar Detectors, GPS, GPS Camera Detectors. Got A Traffic Ticket? Don’t Pay Yet. We Can Help Fight Your Speeding Citat[/url]

[Jim_bo]

Originally Posted by flarityj

1. $130 is most of a day's take home pay.
2. I may actually be not guilty of any wrongdoing.
3. The city is counting on you making this easy for them.
4. I am not Patrick Henry, but I do feel some "duty" to the founding fathers and my fellow citizens to resist this intrusion.

Nicely put. It would take a blind person to see that this has NOTHING to do with public safety... this is nothing more than a TAX by other means. I remember reading about a bunch of tea being thrown in a harbor for similar circumstances.

Someone has to stand up to the State under these tyranical practices. I would certainly think that law would be unconstitutional... but it is done everywhere. There was another thread that talked about the States that treat speeding tickets as civil cases. In most states, a party must show that they have standing to bring a civil case against another party. Standing is normally determined by a three part test:

1. There was injury to the compalining party.
2. There was a causal connection between the injury and the defendant's actions that were complained about.
3. A finding for the plaintiff could actually provide relief to the complaint.

It would be difficult to see how the state passes any of the three tests. However, since this is just speeding tickets (especially if no points go against your license), then it is unlikely that anyone would want to take the effort to challenge the process. So, we all pay our "taxes" and go about our business.

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing".

[Maestro64]

Also, being from Texas, I get plenty of real tickets in conservative WA, but not a single photo ticket yet! Could that PHOTO BLOCKER spay I used really work? Somebody told me a "Myth Busters" episode said it didn't.

[url=http://www.phantomplate.com/photoblocker.html]No More Red Light Camera Tickets. Make Your Car Invisible To Police Speed Cameras With Our License Plate Cover, PhotoBlocker Spray, Radar Detectors, GPS, GPS Camera Detectors. Got A Traffic Ticket? Don’t Pay Yet. We Can Help Fight Your Speeding Citat[/url]

No, spray on photo block does not work, but other methods do and Mythbusters avoid testing those, they only focused on the ones that did not work or were not worth the money, so they exposed the fraud. Also, I highly doubt they would share with the general public methods that allow people to avoid getting a ticket. Think about how many times they have called upon police enforcement to help with one of their stunts. Plus it might be illegal to show people have to break the law in national TV, it would not surprise me that the FCC has some sort of rule around this.

[Maestro64]

Originally Posted by Jim_bo

1. There was injury to the compalining party.
2. There was a causal connection between the injury and the defendant's actions that were complained about.
3. A finding for the plaintiff could actually provide relief to the complaint.

Before you think I am justifying what they did I am not, just showing the governments logic and how it may applies.

1) Speed and traffic violations kill & injure people, damage personal and public property and required public resources to deal with the aftermath.
2) The government has issue you a license so they have a causal as well as legal connection to the license holder.
3) The state/government is out money, time and resources to deal with #1 so they need relief from the actions caused by the person in #2.

This is how they can make traffic violation a civil matter, as I stated before it is design to ensure they get the win. The problem with this method is #2 does not apply to people not from that state so it hard to bring a civil matter against someone who does not meet #2. This is why all states have agreement with each other. Otherwise we can all run around breaking traffic laws in neighboring states. Buy southern states had a solution to this problem put in you jail until you could pay.

This is the exact issue that VA ran into when they passed their very high civil fines for VA license holder. The fines were only for VA resident and out state residents did not have to pay, well the law was pulled back when they found out it would fail in court under the equal protection under the law. Everyone must be treated the same in that case they were not.

[Jim_bo]

Maestro,

The three tests I stated were very broad paraphrases of the actual tests. The actual tests require that the inury be an actual, specific injury and not a hypothetical, probable or potential injury. Therefore, under this condition, the state would fail all three tests.

[Maestro64]

Originally Posted by Jim_bo

Maestro,

The three tests I stated were very broad paraphrases of the actual tests. The actual tests require that the inury be an actual, specific injury and not a hypothetical, probable or potential injury. Therefore, under this condition, the state would fail all three tests.

Trust me they made specific claims of lose or injury we my not agree with their logic but is pass muster.

I am over simplifying, but you get the point...