Pittsburgh, PA speeding ticket-lots of errors

PLEASE HELP! I live in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. My 18 year old son just got a speeding ticket for going 43.5 in a 25 mph area within the City of Pittsburgh limits. The Pittsburgh Police officer used a "stopwatch" and two painted lines on the road. The time listed was 1.57 sec and the distance was 0.019 miles. I have several problems with this situation.

First, my son was very surprised at the high speed listed on the ticket. He is one of the most honest kids I know. He told me that he probably WAS going more than 25 mph, but that he wasn't watching the speedometer as he passed the cops hiding place (he didn't see a cop) and he couldn't verify his speed because the cop pulled behind him while he was aleady stopped at a stop light. But, he didn't think that he was going anywhere close to the speed listed on the citation.

Second, my son was driving the family minivan. Just before the white lines there is a sharp curve. I really don't believe it is possible to drive 43.5 mph without rolling the van on that curve. To prove my point, I verified that there was no cop present and no other traffic and then tried to repeat what my son was accused of doing (stupid? Yes - but to prove his innocence to myself, I had to know!) Going into the speed trap area, I managed to get up to 38 mph before I felt I could go no faster without losing control, so I chickened out and hit the brakes. I've been driving for 27 years and even I couldn't handle the van on that bend at the speed listed on the citation. This proved to me that my son wasn't going 43.5 - however, I'm sure it would be a bad idea to mention this test as part of his defense in court!

I looked at the citation and it references "P.V.C. (Pennsylvania Vehicle Code??) Statute, Sec. 3362" (Pertains to speeding). The Sub. Sec. block is also filled in with what looks to be "63" (or "G3"??). I can find Section 3362, but there is no subsection 63 or G3. Is this grounds for a dismissal? Also, I measured the distance between the white lines with a 100 foot tape measure - the distance between the beginning of each of the lines was only 99.75 feet. The 0.019 miles distance (listed on the ticket) actually works out to be 100.32 feet. It's not a big difference, but having the TWO incorrect distance readings will make the speed appear higher than it actually was. This could be fun to argue in court.

Also, the speed trap was in the middle of an 'S' curve, going downhill. The officer's view of the uphill section of the road (where my son came from) has a house, 2 trees and 2 big bushes between where the officer stood (motorcycle cop) and the road. In order for the officer to have a clear view up the road where the first white line was painted, he couldn't be hiding very far up the side road at all - he had to be right at the intersection, which my son would probably have noticed. However, he never saw the cop, which hints that the cop was far enough up the side road that he couldn't clearly see the first white line. Of course I took photographs of the area from where the cop was probably sitting! (LOTS of photographs of the whole area, in all directions)

As soon as any vehicle passes the second white line, the road becomes hidden by the start of a forest AND it makes a sharp turn turn to the left before going another 100 yards to a major intersection with a stop light, a gas station and several turn-offs onto other roads. Anyone up that side road would instantly lose sight of any vehicle because of the curve and the forest that is there. There are also driveways and side streets between the speed trap and the stop light. The motorcycle cop pulled up behind my son while he was already stopped at the red light! He directed my son to pull onto the larger road along the curb - and then gave him a ticket there. Clearly, the officer lost sight of the vehicle for a long period of time. Although it probably was our family's van that he clocked, theoretically ANY van could have pulled onto or off of this section of road or into or out of the gas station. I feel that, since he lost sight of the vehicle for so long, he cannot PROVE that the van that he pulled over was the same one that he clocked. The minivan is a Chevy Lumina APV - there are a LOT of them in Pittsburgh, all painted in varying shades of green. I am in the middle of contacting Chevrolet to get a list of how many Luminas were sold and how many were green. Also, there is no way that he could accurately start the stopwatch, positively ID the driver AND accurately stop the stopwatch in 1.57 seconds!

Next problem. This 2-lane 25mph road is wide enough to be a 4-lane road. This section of the road is within the city of Pittsburgh. While they were doing construction on the 4-lane West End bridge (one the main bridges across the Ohio river), PennDOT detoured most of the traffic onto this road. Obviously, it can handle a lot of traffic. Cars NEVER seem to drive 25 mph on this road. I can't remember the exact term, but this road was listed as more than a typical residential street - something like a "connector"? road. I can't believe that the 25 mph limit is actually based on the 85th percentile of speed. Right now, I am trying to obtain the most recent Engineering Traffic Study, but Pennsylvania has so many layers of government, that I will be lucky to finally find the right department that has the survey - if one was ever done. I'll bet the cop has no idea when the survey was last done, if it was ever done at all or if the survey allows this area to be set up for speed enforcement. This is probably an illegal speed trap.

Lastly, I called the Traffic Court to find out if I needed a special form to file a Request for Discovery. The girl had never heard of this Request. When I explained what it was for, she said, "You don't need to do that because there is no prosecutor - just the magistrate and a stand-in police officer". When I asked, "What is a Stand-In Police Officer", she said that the officers that issue the tickets usually don't appear in court, so they have another officer read the citation to the magistrate. Then, the defendant gets to give his side of the story. Then the magistrate makes a decision. This appears to be the usual method of conducting traffic court in the city of Pittsburgh. I gotta go visit the courtroom before the actual trial date, because I'm having trouble believing that they actually hold court in that manner! From what I understand, doesn't the ORIGINAL ticketing officer have to be present in the courtroom? Another officer reading the citation is NOT what I believe was meant by being able to confront your witnesses. The citation isn't a "witness", just a court record. Isn't this grounds for an immediate motion to dismiss based on lack of a witness?

I know this was a lot of reading, but I hope it gives you enough information. Any assistance would be appreciated. Thank you very much for your help!

Originally Posted by locator299

PLEASE HELP! I live in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. My 18 year old son just got a speeding ticket for going 43.5 in a 25 mph area within the City of Pittsburgh limits. The Pittsburgh Police officer used a "stopwatch" and two painted lines on the road. The time listed was 1.57 sec and the distance was 0.019 miles. I have several problems with this situation.

First, my son was very surprised at the high speed listed on the ticket. He is one of the most honest kids I know. He told me that he probably WAS going more than 25 mph, but that he wasn't watching the speedometer as he passed the cops hiding place (he didn't see a cop) and he couldn't verify his speed because the cop pulled behind him while he was aleady stopped at a stop light. But, he didn't think that he was going anywhere close to the speed listed on the citation.

Second, my son was driving the family minivan. Just before the white lines there is a sharp curve. I really don't believe it is possible to drive 43.5 mph without rolling the van on that curve. To prove my point, I verified that there was no cop present and no other traffic and then tried to repeat what my son was accused of doing (stupid? Yes - but to prove his innocence to myself, I had to know!) Going into the speed trap area, I managed to get up to 38 mph before I felt I could go no faster without losing control, so I chickened out and hit the brakes. I've been driving for 27 years and even I couldn't handle the van on that bend at the speed listed on the citation. This proved to me that my son wasn't going 43.5 - however, I'm sure it would be a bad idea to mention this test as part of his defense in court!

I looked at the citation and it references "P.V.C. (Pennsylvania Vehicle Code??) Statute, Sec. 3362" (Pertains to speeding). The Sub. Sec. block is also filled in with what looks to be "63" (or "G3"??). I can find Section 3362, but there is no subsection 63 or G3. Is this grounds for a dismissal? Also, I measured the distance between the white lines with a 100 foot tape measure - the distance between the beginning of each of the lines was only 99.75 feet. The 0.019 miles distance (listed on the ticket) actually works out to be 100.32 feet. It's not a big difference, but having the TWO incorrect distance readings will make the speed appear higher than it actually was. This could be fun to argue in court.

Also, the speed trap was in the middle of an 'S' curve, going downhill. The officer's view of the uphill section of the road (where my son came from) has a house, 2 trees and 2 big bushes between where the officer stood (motorcycle cop) and the road. In order for the officer to have a clear view up the road where the first white line was painted, he couldn't be hiding very far up the side road at all - he had to be right at the intersection, which my son would probably have noticed. However, he never saw the cop, which hints that the cop was far enough up the side road that he couldn't clearly see the first white line. Of course I took photographs of the area from where the cop was probably sitting! (LOTS of photographs of the whole area, in all directions)

As soon as any vehicle passes the second white line, the road becomes hidden by the start of a forest AND it makes a sharp turn turn to the left before going another 100 yards to a major intersection with a stop light, a gas station and several turn-offs onto other roads. Anyone up that side road would instantly lose sight of any vehicle because of the curve and the forest that is there. There are also driveways and side streets between the speed trap and the stop light. The motorcycle cop pulled up behind my son while he was already stopped at the red light! He directed my son to pull onto the larger road along the curb - and then gave him a ticket there. Clearly, the officer lost sight of the vehicle for a long period of time. Although it probably was our family's van that he clocked, theoretically ANY van could have pulled onto or off of this section of road or into or out of the gas station. I feel that, since he lost sight of the vehicle for so long, he cannot PROVE that the van that he pulled over was the same one that he clocked. The minivan is a Chevy Lumina APV - there are a LOT of them in Pittsburgh, all painted in varying shades of green. I am in the middle of contacting Chevrolet to get a list of how many Luminas were sold and how many were green. Also, there is no way that he could accurately start the stopwatch, positively ID the driver AND accurately stop the stopwatch in 1.57 seconds!

Next problem. This 2-lane 25mph road is wide enough to be a 4-lane road. This section of the road is within the city of Pittsburgh. While they were doing construction on the 4-lane West End bridge (one the main bridges across the Ohio river), PennDOT detoured most of the traffic onto this road. Obviously, it can handle a lot of traffic. Cars NEVER seem to drive 25 mph on this road. I can't remember the exact term, but this road was listed as more than a typical residential street - something like a "connector"? road. I can't believe that the 25 mph limit is actually based on the 85th percentile of speed. Right now, I am trying to obtain the most recent Engineering Traffic Study, but Pennsylvania has so many layers of government, that I will be lucky to finally find the right department that has the survey - if one was ever done. I'll bet the cop has no idea when the survey was last done, if it was ever done at all or if the survey allows this area to be set up for speed enforcement. This is probably an illegal speed trap.

Lastly, I called the Traffic Court to find out if I needed a special form to file a Request for Discovery. The girl had never heard of this Request. When I explained what it was for, she said, "You don't need to do that because there is no prosecutor - just the magistrate and a stand-in police officer". When I asked, "What is a Stand-In Police Officer", she said that the officers that issue the tickets usually don't appear in court, so they have another officer read the citation to the magistrate. Then, the defendant gets to give his side of the story. Then the magistrate makes a decision. This appears to be the usual method of conducting traffic court in the city of Pittsburgh. I gotta go visit the courtroom before the actual trial date, because I'm having trouble believing that they actually hold court in that manner! From what I understand, doesn't the ORIGINAL ticketing officer have to be present in the courtroom? Another officer reading the citation is NOT what I believe was meant by being able to confront your witnesses. The citation isn't a "witness", just a court record. Isn't this grounds for an immediate motion to dismiss based on lack of a witness?

I know this was a lot of reading, but I hope it gives you enough information. Any assistance would be appreciated. Thank you very much for your help!

WOW!!!, Hello, I receievd my first ticket in Florida about two weeks ago. Originally I was going to just pay it and take the course so that I won't get points on my DL. But after reading your post I think it would be in my best interest to retain your services(s) in this matter. Are you licensed to practice law in Florida, and if so how much would do you charge?

[JETX]

So much for following the rules of the forum as shown at the top of the screen:
Please Include your state, be civil, brief, and to the point,

Sorry, everyone! I overlooked the part about being brief and to-the-point. I just thought it would be easier to give you all of the info, instead of you having to keep asking for more. By the way, this is my first post EVER, so please bear that in mind.

I appreciate the comments, but does anyone have any assistance to offer? Thanks!

[JETX]

Originally Posted by locator299

I appreciate the comments, but does anyone have any assistance to offer?

Won't know until you take the time to remove all the extraneous crap from your post.... and then you might find someone willing to invest the time in reading your issue. At this point, there are simply too many other people who have chosen to follow the rules.... and request assistance.

[ptlmejo]

The time listed was 1.57 sec**************..the distance between the beginning of each of the lines was only 99.75 feet.

The only issue I can see is the short distance used.

[ShyCat]

The only issue I can see is the short distance used.

I don't see how that's going to help you.

99.75 feet in 1.57 seconds = 43.31934 mph.

100.32 feet in 1.57 seconds = 43.56688 mph.

.019 miles in 1.57 seconds = 43.2 mph.

At 25 mph, 99.75 to 100.32 feet would have taken from 2.72 to 2.74 seconds.

Originally Posted by ShyCat

I don't see how that's going to help you.

99.75 feet in 1.57 seconds = 43.31934 mph.

100.32 feet in 1.57 seconds = 43.56688 mph.

.019 miles in 1.57 seconds = 43.2 mph.

At 25 mph, 99.75 to 100.32 feet would have taken from 2.72 to 2.74 seconds.

Again...WOW!!! After reading this entire thread I feel like I am watching court tv

Here is a quick summary of my previous post:

I live in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.

My 18 year old son just got a speeding ticket for going 43.5 in a 25 mph area within the City of Pittsburgh limits.

The officer used a "stopwatch" and two painted lines on the road. The time listed was 1.57 sec and the distance was 0.019 miles.

My son was driving the family minivan which (after testing) cannot go 43.5 mph without rolling the van on that curve.

The citation references "P.V.C. (Pennsylvania Vehicle Code) Statute, Sec. 3362" and "Sub. Sec. 63" (or "G3"??). There is no Section 3362, Sub. Sec 63.

The citation lists the distance at 0.019 miles (100.32 feet). The actual measured distance is 99.75 feet.

The motorcycle officer's view of the first white line was blocked by a house, 2 trees and 2 big bushes.

As soon as any vehicle passes the second white line, the vehicle goes out of sight behind trees and around a bend in the road.

I don't believe that the 25 mph limit is actually based on the 85th percentile of speed.

In Pittsburgh Traffic Court, there is no prosecutor - just the magistrate and a stand-in police officer". The officer that issues the ticket usually doesn't appear in court, so the court has another officer read the citation to the magistrate. From what I understand, doesn't the ORIGINAL ticketing officer HAVE to be present in the courtroom?

Any assistance would be appreciated. Thank you very much for your help!

[JETX]

Thank you for your 'shortening' of the original long thread. And with that... I offer the following:

Originally Posted by locator299

The officer used a "stopwatch" and two painted lines on the road. The time listed was 1.57 sec and the distance was 0.019 miles.

Okay, that comes to 43.57 mph in a 25 mph zone. Sounds like excessive speed to me.

The citation lists the distance at 0.019 miles (100.32 feet). The actual measured distance is 99.75 feet.

Okay, then that comes to 43.31 mph in a 25 mph zone. Still speeding.... and I doubt the court would find much difference since the charge was 43 mph anyway.

My son was driving the family minivan which (after testing) cannot go 43.5 mph without rolling the van on that curve.

I would almost bet that an 'independent' test could make it go that fast. However, this really isn't relevant as your 'testing' wasn't scientific or impartial.... and has NO factual basis for evidence.

The citation references "P.V.C. (Pennsylvania Vehicle Code) Statute, Sec. 3362" and "Sub. Sec. 63" (or "G3"??). There is no Section 3362, Sub. Sec 63.

However, there is an 'a3'. I think what you are seeing is an 'a' and not a 6 or a g.
See: [url]http://members.aol.com/StatutesP1/75PA3362.html[/url]
In anycase, he is certainly able to bring that 'possible error' to the courts attention.

The motorcycle officer's view of the first white line was blocked by a house, 2 trees and 2 big bushes.

And more to bring to the courts attention. I suggest you have a videotape of the scene and ask the court to view it. Of course, they could refuse or agree to do so.

As soon as any vehicle passes the second white line, the vehicle goes out of sight behind trees and around a bend in the road.

If I understand your post, that wouldn't matter what the vehicle does AFTER it passes the second line. The only issue is clocking at and between the lines.

I don't believe that the 25 mph limit is actually based on the 85th percentile of speed.

That is an issue for you to bring up with the city engineering as to the appropriate speed limit. The fact is.... that IS the posted limit at the time of the citation.

From what I understand, doesn't the ORIGINAL ticketing officer HAVE to be present in the courtroom?

In my opinion, yes. There have been several successful challenges to the admissability of a non-witnessing officer testimony as being hearsay. Simply, if that officer didn't WITNESS the violation, there testimony IS hearsay and should not be allowed.

JETX, Thanks for the feedback! It gives me some things to ponder.

I DO believe that my son was speeding - just not as fast as the speed listed on the citation. I'd be happy if we can reduce or eliminate the points. His paying the fine, though, if OK with me - maybe it will teach him a lesson!

[JETX]

Originally Posted by locator299

maybe it will teach him a lesson!

And THAT is one of the most important, and hardest, lessons of being a parent. Helping to teach the child that THEY are accountable for their own actions, which instills responsibility and maturity.
Congratulations!! A lot of parents would have continued arguing 'not my child!'. Turn this into a 'life lesson' and not a denial.