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Police Charging for Discovery Request??

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mrgonzo

Member
Hello, I sent a discovery request to my florida police dept for info on my speeding ticket and I just got a message on my phone telling me that I would have to come by in person to pick the stuff up and they were charging me 11 an hour to fill it etc.! Is this allowed??

I am in a bit of a dilema too, should I just go in person and pay and get the info for court?

OR

Should I go to court and ask the judge to throw out the case since my discovery request info was not sent to me?

Thanks for any info, I have posted here before and appreciate the help everyone gave me.
 


racer72

Senior Member
Is this allowed??
Agencies are allowed to charge a reasonable rate for services provided.

I am in a bit of a dilema too, should I just go in person and pay and get the info for court?
If you really want it.

Should I go to court and ask the judge to throw out the case since my discovery request info was not sent to me?
This is not true and the judge will know it. At best the judge will issue a continuance so you can get your information. Worst case scenario, he knows why you don't have the info and finds you guilty.
 

CdwJava

Senior Member
I hesitate to ask ... but ... what are you asking for?

I would think that if it is the front and back of the citation and maybe the radar calibration logs, that should take less than an hour.

I cannot find the specific information for FL regarding fees for Discovery requests. It may not be proper ... but maybe it is. As Racer72 suggested, yuo can always go to court and mention it to the judge and see what he says ... it might backfire, but it's your roll of the dice.

- Carl
 

mrgonzo

Member
Well, I am asking for any and all notes made by the officer, the type of speed measurement device used and its operating manual.

I got in an argument on the phone with them before about giving me the notes, they claim I do not have a right to them so I thought it best to send the request for discovery registered mail and let the courts deal with it if I dont get it. I thought they had to send the info, what is the point of a discovery request if I have to go their in person and get all this stuff anyway? BTW, RACER my NOLO law book said that if the request is not filled you can motion to have the trial thrown out on grounds of your right to a speedy trial. That book is what gave me the impression that they had to send it.

So if I go there in person and they still dont give me what I need, where does that leave me? From the message on my phone they left, she said that she filled "as much as she could" meaning they are leaving something out.
 
Last edited:

CdwJava

Senior Member
mrgonzo said:
Well, I am asking for any and all notes made by the officer, the type of speed measurement device used and its operating manual.
Notes, yes ... type and serial number of device used, yes ... the operating manual, no. Contact the manufacturer and buy one. They are also under no obligation to copy the vehicle operation manual, the academy training outlines, and any other assorted documents that you can obtain elsewhere.

Besides, there may well be copyright issues involved, so I suspect you are on your own with regard to the manual.

- Carl
 

mrgonzo

Member
Okay, thanks CdwJava - that makes sense, I will have to go by there it is my best chance, I just dont understand what the point of the discovery request is if I have to go by their in person anyway!? Spent 20 bucks on registered mail, so I am kicking myself.
 

cepe10

Member
Okay, thanks CdwJava - that makes sense, I will have to go by there it is my best chance, I just dont understand what the point of the discovery request is if I have to go by their in person anyway!? Spent 20 bucks on registered mail, so I am kicking myself.
I have the kustom signals manuals if you need them for most of the laser and radar devices. I have a few other manuals as well for other devices - see if you can get at what was used.

You should not be required to go in person - they can copy them and sent them by mail easily enough...but that is the game they are playing.

Since they are obviously going to testify to using the speed measurement device and that it was functioning properly etc - discovery of those calibration document, along with the citation notes etc. is very relevant in either civil or criminal cases - as Carl points out they have them in a log already and the fees should be very minimal - I think I was charged like five dollars for the citation notes and calibration records here...

Hiding this info or trying to charge excessive fees is clearly improper but not unheard of unfortunately - the maryland state police like to play that game as well with public information request - that is until the attorney generals office gives them a call:)
 

mrgonzo

Member
Cool, I agree Cepe, they are definitely playing games.

I picked up the packet today and they had the area where I asked for the officers notes or any and all written statements marked N/A... It was a pretty simple ticket not much was said between us, so perhaps there are no notes, but if he shows up in court with notes can I ask to have the case dismissed?

They wouldn't give me the radar manual but I got a paper with the serial it is a Stalker radar unit made by applied concepts. It is actually a certification paper, saying that it was certified october 17 2006, I got my ticket February 14 so could the radar really be calibrated for that long? I think my law books says they have to test it daily or something.
 

CdwJava

Senior Member
Certification and calibration are two different issues. The certification is done annually or bi-annually (not sure what the regs are in FL), and calibration should be done before each shift by the officer ... unless the particular device, somehow, does not need to be so calibrated. Failure to provide that info if requested, could be a problem for the prosecution - especially if it was asked for and not provided.

And there may be notes or reports.

- Carl
 

mrgonzo

Member
Yes, CDWjava when the officer tests it each morning should he put that in a log then? If so I will ask for it. EDIT: I had only asked for the operating manual and model, but they volutarily gave me this certification so if there is in fact a daily log I dont know why they wouldnt produce it?

Has anyone ever heard of this Judicial Notice defense: http://www.tipmra.com/new_tipmra/moving_radar_update.htm

The officer was moving when he used the radar on me so this may work, right :confused:
 

CdwJava

Senior Member
mrgonzo said:
Yes, CDWjava when the officer tests it each morning should he put that in a log then? If so I will ask for it.
He should. But, if no such test was performed, it may not be an issue that helps you - depending on the status of FL law on the issue.

EDIT: I had only asked for the operating manual and model, but they volutarily gave me this certification so if there is in fact a daily log I dont know why they wouldnt produce it?
Perhaps because they did not have it, or the records' clerk did not know to look for it. That log might be kept with the unit or in another office. Ours is kept in the cabinet where the device is checked out, and not with the records unit.

The officer was moving when he used the radar on me so this may work, right :confused:
Heard of some of the things mentioned, but they require very particular and knowledgeable presentation. And if the device was designed for dual operation mode (like the Stalker Dual) and was set for "moving" enforcement, many of the issues can be rendered somewhat moot. Not knowing what the status of the law is in FL, you might have to prove the error or establish reasonable doubt - the state may not (likely will not) be required to prove there was no error.

- Carl
 

cepe10

Member
*fn1 316.1905 Electrical, mechanical, or other speed calculating devices; power of arrest; evidence.

(1) Whenever any peace officer engaged in the enforcement of the motor vehicle laws of this state uses an electronic, electrical, mechanical, or other device used to determine the speed of a motor vehicle on any highway, road, street, or other public way, such device shall be of a type approved by the department and shall have been tested to determine that it is operating accurately. Tests for this purpose shall be made not less than once each 6 months, according to procedures and at regular intervals of time prescribed by the department.

(2) Any police officer, upon receiving information relayed to him from a fellow officer stationed on the ground or in the air operating such a device that a driver of a vehicle has violated the speed laws of this state, may arrest the driver for violation of said laws where reasonable and proper identification of the vehicle and the speed of same has been communicated to the arresting officer.

(3)(a) A witness otherwise qualified to testify shall be competent to give testimony against an accused violator of the motor vehicle laws of this state when such testimony is derived from the use of such an electronic, electrical, mechanical, or other device used in the calculation of speed, upon showing that the speed calculating device which was used had been tested. However, the operator of any visual average speed computer device shall first be certified as a competent operator of such device by the department.

(b) Upon the production of a certificate, signed and witnessed, showing that such device was tested within the time period specified and that such device was working properly, a presumption is established to that effect unless the contrary shall be established by competent evidence.

(c) Any person accused pursuant to the provisions of this section shall be entitled to have the officer actually operating the device appear in court and testify upon oral or written motion.

[24] *fn2 15B-2.09 Test to determine speed accuracy of doppler radar devices.

(1) An accuracy test will be performed on doppler radar speed measuring devices before initially being put into service. The initial test shall be performed by an electronic technician who has the necessary FCC license for electronic radiolocation speed measuring devices. Results of test will be on a certificate dated, signed and witnessed.

(2) An accuracy test after the initial test shall be made not less than once each six (6) months by any operator of the device with a tuning fork furnished by the manufacturer. Each test shall be recorded on a certificate dated and signed by the operator and a witness.


Q: Could the officer have received a readout from a vehicle next to me?

A: Yes. However, the officer is required to first make a visual estimate of the vehicle and then use the device. With a LIDAR, this mistake is highly unlikely, as the officer places a red target on your vehicle.


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Q: Why didn't my RADAR/LASER detector go off?

A: A RADAR operator may have been using the hold button, in which case your detector would alert just as the officer activates the RADAR unit. With LIDAR, the one inch beam actually has to hit the antenna of your detector or it will not alert. Also, the officer may have simply pulled in behind you and "paced"you. This is accomplished by traveling behind a speeder for a few blocks at a steady distance and monitoring your speed on a certified speedometer.


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Q: Do officers have to have their parking lights on when operating RADAR or LIDAR at night?

A: No.


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Q: Can an officer disguise himself in plain clothes to operate RADAR or LIDAR?

A: Yes.


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Q: I was pulled over and the officer who stopped me said that another officer caught me speeding and told him to pull me over. Is this possible?

A: Yes, In the state of Florida, officers are allowed to stop a traffic violator and issue them a citation on another officers observations.


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Q: I was recently ticketed by a Pinellas Park Police Officer, where can I pay my fine?

A: St. Petersburg Traffic Court. 1800 66th St. N, St. Petersburg, Fl 33710 (727) 582-7681


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Q: I have decided to contest the ticket in court. What type of evidence can I expect the officer to present is a typical traffic court trial?

A: This varies on a case to case basis. Expect the officer to have his RADAR or LIDAR course certificates; LIDAR, speedometer, or RADAR certification showing the device was tested in the last six months; log showing that the device was properly tested before and after the shift and witnesses if any. It is also common for officers to present photographs of the area and copies of the in car video tape.
 

cepe10

Member
For moving operation - another witnessed certification is going to come into play - that of the patrol cars speedometer.
 

keithroane

Junior Member
hope this helps

LIVE IS TEXAS Dallas fort worth area

I've got several speeding tickets. I’ve tried to fight every single one too. I’ve lost all the ones in Grand Prairie and won and the ones in Arlington. How ever the last case I lost in Grand Prairie I was trying to prove invalidity in the LTI 20/20 and all that and lost even though my speed was taken from over 1300 feet. Cop on the bridge shooting laser wrote it down as a “Porsh” and spelled Porsche wrong. Both cops were inconsistent explaining how the officer knew I was the same car that was lasered. Ect… long story short I lost and the sate had no case. It happens.

The old guy after me walked up to the judge shows that his throttle / accelerator return spring was broken - He had a receipt from a ASE certified mechanic along with a business avadavat and the judge dismissed it before going to a jury trial. (What I don’t get is how he was able to stop if this was true, but the judge bought it.)

IF THE ABOVE DOSENT HELP
Maybe this will.
Good luck

I. Intro and Objectives

The following instructions will be provided to qualify the instructor as a certified user and instructor of the instrument:

A – Classroom Instruction 3 – 5 Hours
B – Field Instruction 1 – 2 Hours
C – Field Practice 30 Hours
D – Written Examination 45 Minutes
E – Practical Application Test 1 – 2 Hours

This will give the instructor 40 hours of practice, field instruction, and classroom instruction on the theory and practical application of the LTI 20-20. With this knowledge the law enforcement officer will be well prepared to go forward and use the instrument, train other law enforcement personnel to properly use the instrument, and provide testimony in court as to the validity of the instrument.

II. Technical Discussion Of The LTI 20-20

A Laser

Light is a form of electromagnetic radiation, the same as radios and microwaves. The difference is that light has a much lighter frequency than a radio or microwaves. The light emitted by a laser is no different than that emitted by any other source, but a laser has a unique method of generating light.

The word laser is actually an acronym that stands for “Light Amplification by Stimulated Emission of Radiation.” In its simplest form, a laser is made by sandwiching a piece of active material, the lasing medium, between two mirrors.

The two mirrors and the lasing medium form an optical resonator that allows the generation of laser light. The atoms of the lasing medium are put into an excited state by an external energy source; that is they are made to store some of the energy.

The atoms can be made to give up this stored energy as a light wave when another light wave interacts with the atoms. By making sure that the two mirrors are positioned exactly the right distance apart, the light that bounces back and forth forms a standing wave.

Under these conditions, the light waves emitted by the atoms of the lasing medium combine to increase the strength of the standing wave. Just having the light going back and forth in the optical resonator is not particularly useful in itself. So one of the mirrors is designed to allow a portion of the light to escape.

Lasers can be made from a great many different materials including solids, liquids, and gases. Also, the design of the optical resonator and the method of exiting and lasing mediums can vary widely. Yet, whatever form the laser takes, the light is generated by the same basic mechanism.

The type of laser used in the LTI 20-20 is an infrared semiconductor laser diode. The laser diode had several important properties that make it ideal for speed measurement purposes:

The laser diode emits a narrow one of radiation from a very small area. This
allows the light to be cellinated into the very narrow beam that gives the LTI 20-20 its pin point targeting ability.

The laser diode switches on and off extremely quickly, typically in less than
One billionth of a second. This gives the LTI 20-20 its superior accuracy.

Like all lasers, the laser diode emits only a very narrow band of frequencies.
This allows the detector to be “Tuned” to the exact wavelength of the laser diode. This is why the LTI 20-20 can operate during daytime when there is a lot of background radiation from the sun. (The instrument only “Sees” the laser light; all other radiation is filtered out.)

The laser diode emits in the infrared position of the electromagnetic
Spectrum, so it is invisible to the human eye and cannot be a distraction to operation of vehicles.

Diagram of Laser vs. Radar

US Department of
Commerce national institute of
Standards and technology National
Engineering Laboratory
Boulder, Colorado

Laser Radar Gun
LTI 20-20
With
Focusing Lens Assembly

Submitted By:
Laser Technology Incorporated
Englewood, Colorado 80112

Page 1 of 3

Test No. 812420
Date of Report: February 21st 1991

III. Location and Function of the Instruments Components

1. Led Read Out

Displays speed of vehicle coming or going from instrument. Also displays target range in feet utilizing speed 1 range function.

2. Test Mode

Verifies that all numeric segments of the display are operable. Allows user to check alignment of scope and laser beam providing absolute certainty that the laser is on target.

3. Display Intensity

Display is adjustable for maximum versatility in extreme light conditions.

4. Timing Mode

Allows user to utilize a time over distance function of speed measurement.

5. Sighting Scope

Scope incorporates a red dot to pin point the target vehicle while still providing the user plenty of field view to visually identify the vehicle being monitored.

Speed Range

The LTI 20-20 measures target vehicle speed and also provides target range measurement capabilities.

Easy Replacement Fuse

Located in the plug, provides absolute surge protection.

IV. Sighting Scope

Scope Alignment

Scope alignment is set at the factory. The only reason the scope might ever end up out of alignment would be from a heavy blow. Since verification of proper alignment is critical to instrument operation, a test has been incorporated into the instrument. By following this test procedure periodically, the operator of the instrument can verify that the instruments light beam is hitting the sighted target.

Scope Alignment Test

Put the instrument in test mode by pressing the test button on the back panel of the instrument. The display will rend “t t”.

The instrument will emit an audible tone when the instruments trigger is depressed which will change pitch when the laser beam acquires a target. (A
telephone pole is an excellent target because you can aim the instrument sky
ward eliminating anything in the background to interfere with the test.)

Which scanning across the telephone pole, the highest pitch or “On Target”
tone will be heard when the instruments laser beam is hitting the telephone pole. At this point the scope’s red dot should be centered on the test target (Telephone Pole.) This same procedure should be followed both vertically and horizontally. This test insures the accuracy of the LTI 20-20’s targeting mechanics.

~ Check alignment at the scope.

~ What would cause the scope to need realignment?

~ How often should the alignment be checked?
 

keithroane

Junior Member
part 2

Realignment of Scope

Remove the elevation and wind age caps. Put the laser speed detector in target
mode.

With the laser rested on a solid support, sight a small target at least 700 feet
(230 Meters) away, by scanning the laser unit until you hear the “On Target”
(High Pitched Tone) both horizontally and vertically.

Sight through the scope and use the elevation and wind age adjustment screws
to move the red aiming dot to the same target.

~ To move the point of impact up, turn the elevation adjustment screw up and
down to adjust as needed.

~ To move the point of impact to the left, turn the wind age adjustment screw
left and right as needed.

Use the laser speed detector’s test mode to double check the new alignment.

Replace the elevation and wind age caps.

Scope Filter

The scope filter is the ring located on the front of the scope. By turning the filter
clockwise you can adjust the brightness and contrast for changes in lighting
conditions. The scope can be darkened for extremely bright conditions and
should be adjusted to allow maximum light when light conditions are poor.
During darkness, to eliminate the annoyance of light glare, the filter should be
adjusted to soften the view through the scope.

This gives the operator maximum versatility during extreme light conditions. Please note: The laser should never be aimed directly into the sun. Aiming the laser into the sun could melt the laser diode and could injure the operator’s site.

When adjusting the adjustment screw up, does this move the dot up or does it move the target up?

Brightness Contrast

The red dot used for sighting can be adjusted for intensity and size by adjusting the display control knob. By adjusting the red dot intensity and the scope filter, the optimal setting can be achieved to fulfill a variety of lighting requirements for speed and distance measurements, day or night. The operator will also notice that when the display intensity is reduced to lower levels, the display disappears before the scope’s red dot does.

~ Have the instructor/student adjust the red dot for size and intensity.

~ Choose your needs through individual adjustments.

~ When display intensity is reduced, remember your display will disappear before
the red dot.

V. Tests and Checks

The LTI 20-20 has been programmed to give the user the ability to test and check each aspect of the instrument that would have an effect on the accuracy and or the proper and efficient use of the instrument.

Test Incorporation

~ Self test

~ Display test

~ Scope alignment test

~ Calibration test

Self Test

When the instrument is initialized it puts itself through a self check. The instruments microcontroller interrogates each circuit board. If every thing tests positive the instruments display will form “8.8.8.8” to a blank display. If the instrument does not test positive, error 50-55 will be displayed. Double check your power source, if the power source is not the problem, contact a LTI 20-20 service center for assistance.

Display Test

To test that all segments of the display are functioning properly, press the “Test” button and keep it pressed. When this button is pressed, all segments of the display will light up with “8.8.8.8”. If any segments of the display are not functioning properly, a flaw will be evident in one of the numbers displayed. If there is a problem, the display will have to be replaced.

Scope Alignment Test

This test is designed to insure that the light beam of the laser is directed precisely where the red dot of the scope indicates. If the scope is out of alignment, the light beam will not hit the target vehicle and the patrolman will get an error message when trying to target any other vehicles. This test should be performed before each shift begins to insure proper and efficient use of the instrument. A detailed description of this test is provided in section IV. 1.

Calibration Test

Since the laser is not a radio frequency there is nothing in the instrument that can drift out of frequency. The speed calculations are referred to a crystal control time base which is guaranteed to have less than 100 parts per million (PPM) errors over the full operation temperature of the instrument. Yet, because it is necessary to verify, calibration has been incorporated into the instrument. It is suggested that the patrolman verify the calibration before starting a shift. There are several methods to accomplish this, three are listed below:

Fixed distance zero velocity check. In a convenient location establish a permanent known distance between two stationary points. For uniformity, the distance used should be 175 feet. If space is not available this distance is not an absolute requirement. To ensure the accuracy of the fixed distance, use a mental tape. The target should be a sign, pole, wall, or other permanent structure. On the target paint a bull’s eye or a mark to aim at. Measure 175 feet from the target and mark the designated point with an X painted on the pavement. This painted X is where the laser operator will always stand to test for verification of calibration. The orientation of the target surface should be perpendicular to the laser beam. To verify calibration a horizontal distance should be used. A slope distance, depending on the angle, will travel a longer distance. A distance measured to the base of a 30 foot light pole, of 175 feet is a measurement. The distance measured from the same point to the top of a 70 foot light pole, is a slope measurement, and would be 2.5 feet longer than a ground or horizontal measurement. Check laser accuracy by having the operator stand on the painted X and aim at the target. Pull the trigger and acquire the target. A 0 miles per hour speed measurement should be displayed. Pressing the speed 1 range button will switch to the range mode and will display the current distance, plus or minus one foot. There are two causes of the plus or minus one foot result. Holding the instrument at different locations, either in front of, or behind, the painted X and by the rounding of displayed ranges. A precise measurement is needed, carefully position the instrument over the painted X. By verifying the ranging and timing accuracy of the instrument with the above tests, the true elements used to measure velocity are checked. A 0 miles per hour speed measurement shows verification of the instrument timing accuracy. A 0 miles per hour reading of a stationary target is identical in nature to obtain accurate speed reading of a moving vehicle at all speeds. Therefore, calibration verification is complete.

Delta Distance Velocity Check

In a convenient location, establish permanent known. Distances between three points that form a line. For uniformity, and distances used should be 150 feet and 175 feet. If space is not available these distances are not absolute requirements.

Each time an LTI 20-20 us out of duty, they will go through the following test procedure:

A –
B – 8.8.8.8
C –
D – “t d 2”
E – 174 175 o 176
F – 1 MPH for every 6 inches

This test includes checks on the instrument ranging accuracy and on its timing accuracy which are the 2 elements that calculate velocity.

We know if distance and time clocks in the instrument are functioning properly then it will accurately measure velocity.

Confidence Check

10 degree round angle. Adjust red dot for size and intensity. Choose your own lighting requirements for your needs through individual adjustments.

When display intensity is reduced, your display will disappear before the red dot.

If something is wrong with the display, what procedures are required?

Main test suggested for verification of calibration.

Explain the methods of calibration that can be done in a moving vehicle.

Set Up Preparations

Clear line.

Setting up to minimize angular or cosine effect.

Set up so that the instrument is shooting out of or through a side window other than a wind shield.

Line of Sight

0.3 seconds.

Angular – Cosine Coincide

Name three items that should always be considered in setting up for use of the LTI 20-20.

Why should you avoid using laser through a wind shield?

If shooting through a window, what procedure is suggested?

Is the angular effect on a laser the same or different from radar?

Setup so the laser is as close to the road as possible.

How do you know when the instrument has acquired a reading?

How can multiple readings be acquired?

What hard ware and soft ware has been incorporated into the instrument that makes it very difficult to produce an error free reading?

E 1
E 2
E 3
E4
E 50-55

If vehicle is out of range, it makes a buzzing noise.

Keep trigger pulled.

As soon as the vehicle comes into range the LTI 20-20 will produce a reading.

For the laser to measure distance, it is necessary that the section of read between the two reference points to be straight.

Operational Sequence – Method One

Press the timing mode button.

Sight the laser.

Press the timing mode button.

Press it again.

Method Two

This form of speed, takes an average speed of the vehicle over a distance, not the peak speed.

The larger the object, the longer the range.

Ranging Differences

Brightness of color

Finish – Shiny vs. Dull

Mass

Shape

Angle orientation

What are the characteristics of a target that will affect the maximum range of the LTI 20-20?

Why is the car further away?

What is the range accuracy of the LTI 20-20?

Maintenance

What is the proper procedure to take, if the LTI 20-20 gets wet?

Is it necessary to clean the unit before it is stored?

How should you clean the front lens? (Carefully)
 

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