Right Turn - Recieved ticket

[oklahomadriva]

What is the name of your state? OKLAHOMA

Violation:

Red light

23-110

My Story:
I approached a light, the arrow was green. As I reached the light, the light turned yellow. Feeling I could not make the stop without stopping in the middle of the intersection, I went ahead and turned. I don't know when the opposite light turned red, however I had a feeling that it had changed after I crossed the light.

The police officer had stated that he had "clearly" seen the whole thing, however, I have reason to think differently as I entered the intersection as the light turned yellow and the fact that he came down the street a good quarter mile and two minutes later with sirens blazing.

Doing some research and still unsure, I had come across this quote:

Reference from my states' drivers manual
A yellow signal light means the red signal is about to appear.If you can stop safely, do so. If not, PROCEED cautiously.

According to a book published by NOLO on beating traffic tickets.
It is LEGAL for a driver to go through an intersection when the light is YELLOW. If the FRONT of a driver's car ENTERS the intersection when the light is YELLOW, it is LEGAL to continue across the intersection in most states.
A proper defence should include:
A diagram showing that the position the officer viewed your car at was obstructed if it was, along with a statement where you were when the light turned yellow and where you were when it turned red.

I remember reading that statement in my state's drivers manual, and it serves as the basis behind my argument besides the fact that I don't believe the police officer could have "clearly" seen the whole event unless he was behind me.

Should I pay the fine ($104) or go to court? Opinions? Suggestion?

[Zigner]

So, you've got unbiased, expert testimony disputing your account of the events. What unbiased, expert testimony do you have supporting your account of the events?

[oklahomadriva]

Originally Posted by Zigner

So, you've got unbiased, expert testimony disputing your account of the events. What unbiased, expert testimony do you have supporting your account of the events?

Nothing is unbiased. Police officers are humans as well, and there is always bias in every action.

Essentially its police officers word against mine. I will be checking with the city for any traffic camera footage.

[Zigner]

Originally Posted by oklahomadriva

Nothing is unbiased. Police officers are humans as well, and there is always bias in every action.

Essentially its police officers word against mine. I will be checking with the city for any traffic camera footage.

In this case, "bias" refers to having a reason to lie. The officer is considered an unbiased individual. He has no reason to lie about the offense. The other person involved (you) has a big reason to lie.

To be clear: I am NOT calling you a liar. Rather, I'm explaining why the officer is considered unbiased and why you are NOT considered unbiased.

[fueledbymusic]

I have heard it this way before about any red light violations:

When you proceed through a yellow light. As long as you pass more than half way through the intersection or right turn before the red light come one, YOUR OK.

But if the red light comes on BEFORE you reach half way through intersection etc. Police considers you running the light.

THIS IS HOW I HEARD IT BEFORE. I do know for sure, running the yellow light is 100% OK (or at least I think)

[Zigner]

Originally Posted by fueledbymusic

I have heard it this way before about any red light violations:

When you proceed through a yellow light. As long as you pass more than half way through the intersection or right turn before the red light come one, YOUR OK.

But if the red light comes on BEFORE you reach half way through intersection etc. Police considers you running the light.

THIS IS HOW I HEARD IT BEFORE. I do know for sure, running the yellow light is 100% OK (or at least I think)

Exactly what does this have to do with our OP running the red light (as he was cited for?)

[Maestro64]

Forget the Drivers manual has no bearing on the rules they are guild lines for the average driver

Look up your state's statue you were cited for and you most likely find that it complied with the Federal MUTCD (Unified Traffic Control Devices) which it say they you can only be convicted for running a red light or failing to obey a stop light if in fact you cross the "Stop Line" after the light turned red.

The stop line are usually painted on the ground right before the intersection starts, if there is no stop line then it is either the cross walk if one exist or what they will say is an imaginary line acrossing the road at the very beginning of the intersection. In any of these cases if the front of car has already pass over the stop line and the light is still yellow you did not run the red light. Also since the light is required to meet the MUTCD it means that all the light in all directions must be red for a period of time so any cars left in the intersection when entering on yellow have time to clear the intersection again this is not a violation.

The only issue is some state pass a law that says you can not be in the intersection or blocking the intersection. Meaning if you fail to clear it when the opposing traffic gets a green and your still within the intersection.

So for your defense;

If the officer says you where in the intersection when it turned red, you point to the law and rules governing intersection operations and you win since you did not break the law as clearly defined by the MUTCD. Also, keep in mind. will the office be able to testify he could clearly see the stop line as well as where your car was in reference to that stop line when the light in fact turned red. This is the part you need to focus on, if he can not show from his vantage point he had clear line of sight of the stop line and your car then you have your reasonable doubt and at that point it subjective at best.

Your point is valid about the officer bias, most officers think the mere fact you are in the intersection when the light turned red is running a red light which is not accurate therefore a bias due to not knowing the rule that govern an intersection operation.

Here is someone who fought a Red Light Camera Ticket which are usually hard to win, but it show all the rules that govern a red light.

[url]http://www.radardetector.net/viewtopic.php?t=34481&highlight=[/url]

[Zigner]

Originally Posted by Maestro64

Your point is valid about the officer bias, most officers think the mere fact you are in the intersection when the light turned red is running a red light which is not accurate therefore a bias due to not knowing the rule that govern an intersection operation.

Please cite your sources for this statement.

[fueledbymusic]

Originally Posted by Zigner

Exactly what does this have to do with our OP running the red light (as he was cited for?)

A LOT!!! OP is talking about running a yellow light! right!

That was only my comment! (what I heard from someone before, in California anyway!)

This comment is based on my 20 years of driving experiance! hahaha

[Zigner]

Originally Posted by fueledbymusic

A LOT!!! OP is talking about running a yellow light! right!

OP was cited for running a red light.

[oklahomadriva]

This is what I was cited for: 23-110
http://library3.municode.com/default/link.htm?view=jumpview&s_context=foliolink&s_action=newSearch&s_filter=simple|1|true|infobase|14015| phrase|true&s_filter=simple|2|true|foliodestination|ch023.x1-23-110|phrase|true&link_type=jump&s_addFilter=1&s_addFilter=2&hash=0-0-0-2647

Sec. 23-110. Same---Red legend.
(a) No person shall operate a vehicle facing a steady red light other than to stop that vehicle on the near side of a crosswalk or at a sign or other marking on the pavement indicating where a stop shall be made.
(b) A person having stopped his vehicle in accordance with the above subsection shall remain standing:
(1) Until the proper and applicable green indication is shown; or
(2) A right turn may be executed while facing a steady red light, unless such movement is specifically prohibited by official signs posted at the intersection. However, such turning may be executed only so long as:
a. That vehicle making the turn is in the lane nearest the right edge or curb of the roadway; and
b. That person yields the right-of-way to other vehicles which are close enough to constitute an immediate hazard or pedestrians lawfully within the intersection or adjacent crosswalk.
(Ord. No. 2009, § 23, 7-15-96)
Editor's note: Section 23 of Ord. No. 2009, adopted July 15, 1996, amended § 23-110 in its entirety to read as herein set out. Formerly, said section pertained to necessity of signs and derived from § 20-23 of the 1970 Code

As I understand it, I was cited for entering the intersection when the light was red... which is ludicrous especially when the turn was a left turn and I would have gotten mowed over. Some one correct me if im wrong or please clarify the meaning of this section.

I asked the city for any camera footage, and apparently what I thought was a camera is a sensor... which I find hard to believe.

Anyways, I went to the court house and pleaded not guilty, so I will have to come up with some sort of defense.

Thank you for your information Maestro64. I am not too sure how OKLAHOMA complies with the MUTCD ([url]http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/resources/state_info/oklahoma/ok.htm[/url]). The link you supplied no longer works, so I can not see the rules that govern a red light. I might as well use this as my defense if the officers story about clearly seeing me fails or the fact that I was cited for making a turn when the light was red according to 23-110 vs turning on a yellow light and the light turning red before I crossed the stop line.

Output appreciated.

[oklahomadriva]

Wow, and I just noticed but I made a mistake, instead of a right turn it was a left turn.