Speeding ticket at night with no radar or laser

[2009wrx]

I live in California and i got a speedind ticket comming home from my friends house at around midnight one night. He said I was doing 50 in a 35.
On the ticket it says Speed Approx 50/P.F.Max 35/Veh Lmt 35/ Safe 35/ Radar N/A

obviosly he didnt get me with any radar or laser.

how good are my chances at winning this? What should I say in court and what should I be prepared to defend.
Thanks

 

[JIMinCA]

Why is it obvious that he didn't use radar or laser? If he didn't, how did he determine your speed?

 

[2009wrx]

he would have had to have filled it out in the ticket under radar if he used it.
He just approximated my speed. he didnt even get behind me and pace me. basically he is guessing.

 

[I_Got_Banned]

Officers are trained and have been known to cite motorists based on a visual estimate of their speed. You can challenge that by questioning him about his training but that can prove to be a tough argument to present.

In fact, that is their basis for being able to use Radar or Laser. They are supposed to visually estimate your speed, then follow that up by getting a readin off of Radar or Laser... or even a pace.

 

[2009wrx]

Yeah he didn't pace me I check my mirrors often and before he pulled me over he was at least 300 yards behind me on a street with very few street lights.

 

[Maestro64]

IGB,

According to Carl CHP has no formal training on Visual estimates

Visual Speed Estimation Certification For California

As he pointed out, it is very hard to challenge that the officer could be wrong.

Here is this tidbit

http://jesbeard.com/s12.htm

 

[CdwJava]

Well, let me clarify ... while there is no course I am aware of that trains someone in visual estimation alone, visual estimation (within +/- 2 MPH, as I recall) IS part of radar training. And, since all CHP officers receive extensive radar training, it would be safe to assume that they are capable of showing they have training and experience in this.

Oh, and I have yet to be in a court that has allowed the theatrics as mentioned in the Jes Beard link (about dropping an object from an outstretched hand). It's not even remotely the same as the officer's training and experience in the visual estimation of the speed of a motor vehicle for a number of reasons.

- Carl

 

[Maestro64]

Personally, I have seen a number of Radar training class material even the Guidelines put forward by the NHTSA and non of them had any material on visual estimates, here is one such class.

Radar and Laser Gun Certification. Best Radar Gun and Best Laser Gun. - Speed Measurement Laboratories.

They talk about visual tracking history, which is what you need to do to establish which car in a pack of car was producing the highest speed.

I believe the whole visual estimate comes form a number of cases which say police can not stand out on the highway fishing for someone speeding with a radar gun. Those case said the officer must first establish the person was speeding buy a visual estimate before confirming the speed with a radar gun.

The simple fact you not find any material that is written down on how to teacher of train someone how to estimate someone speed by visually make me wonder.

I do know for a fact that is very hard if not impossible to determine a moving objects speed as it come straight at you. If you perpendicular that is a lot easier. However to get absolute speed it had unless you have another object that is moving at a known speed and you can compare the two.

I have saw that pencil drop tacked a number of times, however, I have yet to hear a single person who was successful at using it.

IMHO - visual speed estimate is a wild guess at best and so it basically your guilty by a guess

 

[Zigner]

Personally, I have seen a number of Radar training class material even the Guidelines put forward by the NHTSA and non of them had any material on visual estimates, here is one such class.

Let's see...who to believe? The CHP officer (supervisor) who has DIRECT experience...or the gentleman surfing the web? hrmmm...

 

[CdwJava]

Personally, I have seen a number of Radar training class material even the Guidelines put forward by the NHTSA and non of them had any material on visual estimates,

While I am not radar certified, many of my officers are and they tell me that they did, indeed, have to conduct quite a number of visual estimations with a 100% success rate in order to pass that portion of the class. I recall being told that the visuals had to be within +/- 2 MPH. It is the CHP that conducts most of the radar courses I am aware of, we don't use "speedlabs" or any such outfit.

I believe the whole visual estimate comes form a number of cases which say police can not stand out on the highway fishing for someone speeding with a radar gun. Those case said the officer must first establish the person was speeding buy a visual estimate before confirming the speed with a radar gun.

That is how they are trained - that the visual estimation is confirmed by the radar reading.

The simple fact you not find any material that is written down on how to teacher of train someone how to estimate someone speed by visually make me wonder.

No, it just means that the specific materials are proprietary. You cannot find the manuals for most of the classes I have taken, yet I am certified as an instructor in a number of areas where the curriculum is not available on the net. I am certain that the officers that have taken the course will have that info in their training manuals. And, if you are really curious, you can contact the California Peace Officer Standards and Training office in Sacramento and request a syllabus or outline for the "radar certification" course. They can probably provide you with the minimum standards as established by california.

I have saw that pencil drop tacked a number of times, however, I have yet to hear a single person who was successful at using it.

Same here. Seen it used, but never seen a court buy it.

IMHO - visual speed estimate is a wild guess at best and so it basically your guilty by a guess

An educated guess based upon training and experience sort of hedges that guess.

The same is true with DUI or even drug influence enforcement. The officer is not guaranteeing impairment, only asserting that the observations are consistent with those of a subject who is under the influence of a type of substance.

Zigner, as a note, I am not with the CHP ... I get to enforce ALL the California codes!

- Carl