Speeding Ticket Question

[matoau]

See below links for: Map of supposed clocking
[url]http://www.khourysrestaurant.com/download/map.jpg[/url]
[url]http://www.khourysrestaurant.com/download/map2.jpg[/url]

I was pulled over the evening of March 2, 2006 on Diamond Path and Dodd Road, in Apple Valley, MN by a Rosemount, MN Police officer who said he clocked me going 51 in a 45 (lot of time on this guy's hands).

Prior to the police lights coming on, I was sitting at the stop light (south bound) of Diamond Path and County Road 42 waiting for the light to turn green, and when the light turned green I proceeded through when the police lights came on. Thinking, this should be quick (is my tail light out?) because I definately was NOT speeding, the officer comes up and asks for my license for speed saying I was going 51 in a 45. NO WAY was I speeding. I had no clue where the officer even clocked me (until now see maps)) although the traffic ticket shows, 'Diamond Path and Upper 148th', but I was careful of my speed because I had set my cruise control at 45 MPH at the prior stop sign!!!

1) Can I fight this on the grounds that I was NOT speeding?
2) Is there any jurisdictional issues here such as the cop clocking on the border of Rosemount and Apple Valley and then finally pulling me over in Apple Valley? He is a Rosemount cop.
3) Further to my defense I was coming to a RED stop light and at the point where this officer noted he clocked me, I would have had to have stopped in approx 500 feet. From 51 MPH to a stop in 500 feet wouldn't be your casual stop.
4) Anything else? Or I am just out $117?

The cop was also an ass hole. I know the guy becaue I went to highschool with him, and we did NOT get a long.

Bottom Line: I was NOT speeding...

Thanks,

Matt

[racer72]

1. What proof do you have? Please don't use the cruise control as a defense, most judges are tired of hearing that lame excuse.
2. Not relevent. The only thing that matters is where the violation occurred. That only happens on the Dukes of Hazzard. The officer could have pulled you over just about anywhere.
3. Not true. I have slowed my GTO from 80 to 0 in less than 200 feet without any hard braking. Most cars should be able to go from 50 to 0 in less that 50 feet with hard braking, 500 feet is nothing.
4. Talk to a local attorney, most consultations are free. It may be possible to have the ticket reduced to a non moving violation or dismissed due to a technical error.

[JETX]

Originally Posted by matoau

Can I fight this on the grounds that I was NOT speeding?

Of course you can.

Is there any jurisdictional issues here such as the cop clocking on the border of Rosemount and Apple Valley and then finally pulling me over in Apple Valley? He is a Rosemount cop.

Nope. If he witnessed the violation in HIS jurisdiction, he has 'badge authority' to cite you even if you are now in another.

Further to my defense I was coming to a RED stop light and at the point where this officer noted he clocked me, I would have had to have stopped in approx 500 feet. From 51 MPH to a stop in 500 feet wouldn't be your casual stop.

Not mine... but it could be yours. Also, your 'argument' is irrelevant as it proves nothing.

Anything else? Or I am just out $117?

I see NOTHING in your post that is likely to be a valid defense. Your call on what you want to do.

The cop was also an ass hole. I know the guy becaue I went to highschool with him, and we did NOT get a long.

Bottom Line: I was NOT speeding...

And of course, NONE of that is relevant.

[sukharev]

You need to tell us what was used to clock your speed. You are below 10 mph, and that's bull, most of those tickets get either dismissed or reduced to non-moving violations, but you need to know how to do that. Also, it sounds like you have never received a speeding ticket, because it's not just $117 you loose, insurance is going to cost a whole lot more.

[matoau]

He used a radar gun to clock me.

1) I was NOT speeding. So the burden of proof should be on him to prove that I was speeding, correct?

2) He allegedly clocked me at the intersection of 148th & Diamond Path while I approached a red light. See map I linked in the original post. When I pulled up to the red stop light from a coast, I saw headlights approach mine slowly and when I finally noticed it was a cop, I turned my cruise control back on and waited for the light to turn green. Once it did, I proceeded through the intersection, and his lights came on about 300 feet past the intersection.

Why did it take so long to pull me over? I really believe this guy I knew in high school - and we did not get a long - clocked someone on Highway 42 where the speed limit is 50 MPH - and I think he pinned it on me. Would that constitute reasonable doubt?

Not that this matters, but I was coming from a family gathering and earlier in the day we just buried my 53 year old aunt who died of cancer.

M

[sukharev]

First of all, you can try to negotiate with DA before trial, and see if he offers you a deal with no points. This is far better than trying to fight, just pay the fines and leave. Unfortunately, in many courts you don't automatically get to do this, and sometimes even have to speak to the officer, not DA. In any case, be respectful (don't even try to show your pride or argue, just state you are willing to pay fines but don't want any points).

If you cannot get the deal with no points, then you have to fight it.

Originally Posted by matoau

He used a radar gun to clock me.

If you would like to fight it, 51 in 40 should be doable. Radar has many flaws, and if it was mounted in a moving car, then the errors are even greater. Start looking up how to file discovery request of all relevant documents (for example, tipmra website has a template on its free pages).

Originally Posted by matoau

1) I was NOT speeding. So the burden of proof should be on him to prove that I was speeding, correct?

He'll prove it allright. Standard carbon-copy statement, with all necessary elements in place (unless he was sloppy and not trained well to give testimony). Bear in mind, radar reading will be introduced as evidence, and it would be up to you to fight it.

Originally Posted by matoau

2) He allegedly clocked me at the intersection of 148th & Diamond Path while I approached a red light. See map I linked in the original post. When I pulled up to the red stop light from a coast, I saw headlights approach mine slowly and when I finally noticed it was a cop, I turned my cruise control back on and waited for the light to turn green. Once it did, I proceeded through the intersection, and his lights came on about 300 feet past the intersection.

Why did it take so long to pull me over? I really believe this guy I knew in high school - and we did not get a long - clocked someone on Highway 42 where the speed limit is 50 MPH - and I think he pinned it on me. Would that constitute reasonable doubt?

Not that this matters, but I was coming from a family gathering and earlier in the day we just buried my 53 year old aunt who died of cancer.

M

None of that would matter much, but some may help. For example, if you testify, you can indeed open by describing circumstances as above. However, you need to first catch officer on any inconsistency, then testify to your version of events. Don't even think of accusing him directly, though - would not fly at all. Bottom line, you catch any technicalities, show that officer has inconsistent testimony and lack of independent recollection, then finish by offering alternative version of events with your testimony. Then, you let the judge decide.

[matoau]

His radar unit was dash mounted. It was rectangular in shape and thin. It had two numbers. His on the left and mine on the right. His speed was 41 and mine (allegedly) was 52. But for some reason he put 51 on the ticket, so 51 in a 45.

So with that radar gun, all I could find after some Westlaw searches is arguments based on the certification and calibration of the radar gun/machine.

I'd be perfectly happy with this being dropped to a non-moving violation.

My court date is set for late this month (March). My understand is that at this time all I do is plead - not guilty and then I'm supposed to go back for the actual court date. At what point would I talk to the prosecutor about a deal? Does he/she approach me?

I've really never stood before a judge before, let alone cross-examined someone, so I'm getting pretty nervous.

From the night this happened, I went home and wrote everything down I could remember - and I've got a lot of details.

Thanks for all your help. It is very much appreciated.

M

[matoau]

Date:
March 2nd, 2006

Time:
11:30 PM CST

Weather:
29 Degrees Fahrenheit
Partly Cloudy
Light Breeze

Location of Offense:
Diamond Path & Upper 148th in Rosemount, MN

Location when police lights came on:
200 feet into Apple Valley, MN on Diamond Path

Location where both vehicles stopped:
50 feet into Dodd Blvd in Apple Valley, MN

Distance between Offense and Pulled Over:
1500 feet

That night:
I was traveling home from a family get-together after a day spent with family for a funeral of a family member.

I was traveling south on Diamond Path from Pilot Knob heading towards Connemara Trail towards the 140th Street intersection and stop sign while traveling the speed limit of 45 MPH, and there were three cars behind me on that single lane road.

At the intersection of Diamond Path and 140th Street, I stopped, re-enabled my cruise control, started through the intersection and set my cruise to 45 MPH. One car was still behind me from the intersection of Diamond Path and 140th Street. After the intersection, Diamond Path is now a four lane street (two north _ two south). I continued south on Diamond Path in the left lane to the point where Diamond Path turns back into a two lane street (one north _ one south).

I decelerated (disengaged the cruise control) at approximately Diamond Path and 148th Street and slowly approached the red stop light at the intersection of Diamond Path and Country Road 42. The car behind me proceeded to get into the right turn lane to make a right turn onto Country Road 42. As this time I saw headlines coming from a left turn onto Diamond Path from Upper 148th Street and I watched them slow approach pondering to myself if that was a police officer. Once I knew it was, I re-enabled my cruise control and waited for the light to turn green all-the-while cars are traveling west and east on County Road 42 probably doing the speed limit, which is 50 MPH.

Once the light turned green, I slowly accelerated and 200-300 feet into Apple Valley, MN on Diamond Path the police officer turned on his flashing lights and I began to look for a place to pull over. I made a right turn on Dodd Blvd in Apple Valley, MN approximately 50 feet from the intersection. At this time I began thinking, _this should be quick, because I know I was not speeding_, so I began to think if I had a tail light out or something small.

Sequence of Events:
The officer approached the vehicle and immediately asked for my driver_s license, and I provided it. He took it from my hand and began to walk back to his vehicle when I asked:

_Why was pulled over?_

Officer said, _For speeding_.

I said, _I was speeding?_

Officer said, _Yes, I clocked you going 51 MPH in a 45 MPH zone. You will see it on the ticket when I_m done writing it._

The officer walked away.

The officer came back with the ticket and handed it to me.

I said, _You clocked me going 51 MPH? Where?_

The officer said, _At the corner of Diamond Path and Upper 148th_.

At this time I was trying to think where that is, and I said, _I am sure that I was not speeding_.

The officer then said, _The radar actually shows you going 52 MPH._

Now I am thinking, why did he write 51 MPH?

Dumbfounded, I looked at the officer and recognized him from Simley High-School class of 1995.

I said, _I know you_.

The officer said: _Huh?_

I said, _I know you, what is your name?_

The officer said: _What do you mean what is my name why do you need my name, my badge number is on the ticket?_

The officer began to walk away.

Again I said, _what is your name (all-the-while thinking), and I blurted out, _Emmanuelle_. (The next day I found out his real name after contacting the Rosemount Police department. **** ******, and yes, I went to high school him, and no, we didn_t get along.)

The officer said, _No, that is not my name. And walked away._

I said again, _what is your name, I know you._ The officer ignored me.

I then said, _I want to see your radar gun_.

The officer paused, turned around at me and said, _Step out of the car, go to the passenger side of the vehicle and wait._

I followed the instructions and when I was in front of the patrol car, I point to the side of the car and said, _This side?_, just to confirm what the officer said.

The officer then said in a sarcastic voice, _yes, that is the passenger side of the vehicle._

The officer then said in an annoyed voice, _you will see two numbers. The number on the left is my speed (which was 41 MPH) and the number on the right is yours (which read 52 MPH).

The device in which I was reading the numbers was dash mounted, long, thin, and rectangular in shape. I looked at the numbers, and walked away.

[matoau]

Ok...

Can someone tell me how the court proceedings will work? That's what I am most nervous about.

My initial court date is for the end of March, 2006. My understanding is that at this point in time, all I do is show up and plead - not guilty - and then a new court date will be set. Right? Anything else? Do I ever meet with the prosecutor? If yes, do any of you have any suggestions on what or rather how I should explain my case? I would be perfectly happy if this dropped down to a non-moving violation. I also do not know what "points" are.

1 ticket in 10 years. Not a bad record. I just don't want my insurance to go up.

Any and all helpful detailed information would help calm my nerves...

Thanks to everyone.

[matoau]

Are there any tricks to speaking with a prosecutor? Does that happen at the court date after a plea is entered?

[sukharev]

There are no tricks, just a simple strategy: give them what they want (money) and ask to give you what you want (no points).

Bring your spotless driving record with you, explain that you feel you were not speeding, and the radar readings could be caused by an error (look up on the web what errors are for a moving radar). Ultimately, ask for a dismissal of the ticket or change to non-moving violation with paying court costs.

If DA does not want to negotiate, don't say anything else (it may and will be used against you in court), plead not guilty, then go to trial. Good luck.

[matoau]

But at what point do I talk to a DA? At my scheduled court date?

Also, where does one obtain a copy of a driving record? Online? Do I go to the DMV?

Thanks.

[sukharev]

call the court or go there to find out. Procedures vary so much it's imposible to answer with certainty unless familiar with particular court.

Call dmv or go to their website. Typically, you can order it online for a small fee (<$30).

[matoau]

Ok, so my court date is tomorrow and I'm nervous!

What do I expect? Can someone walk me through a typical situation where I walk into the court house and talk to the DA?

What should I say?
More importantly, what should I NOT say? Like, I'm not Guilty, etc., etc.... I'm thinking that would piss off the DA?.?.?

Thanks again!!!!

[sukharev]

A typical hearing looks like this:

You sit in a courtroom full of people with similar cases. Before the trial, you hear DA calling anyone who want to talk to him (police officer or clerk may be doing the same). In any rate, you respond, they call you into a room, where you hear the allegation (speeding charge), then asked for your response. Probably the best answer would be "what are my options?". You will hear the options, and get to choose:

1) plead guilty and pay full fine,
2) plead guilty to lesser offense and pay lesser fine with less points, or
3) plead not guilty and go to court.

The second option is really not a given, but most frequently you do hear a version of that.

Say you choose to plead not guilty. You are escorted back to courtroom. After long delay, you hear your name called, you approach the bench, and DA calls his star witness (the officer). Officer reads from the ticket, testifies that he operated radar properly and DA calls it a day. If you want, you can cross-examine the officer, or testify yourself. The judge asks you what happened, you tell him why you think officer made a mistake, DA cross-examins you and then you are done. Unless your cross-examination was successful in showing the problem with radar, judge tells you that you are guilty, and may reduce your fine somewhat. That's it, pay up whatever the fine is in full.