Suffolk County, LI: incorrect statute, subsection on ticket related to change in law

[conanav]

Driving home from a gas station in Riverhead, NY at 3:00am, I got pulled over by a police vehicle. The police officer - judging from his questions - seemed to have suspected DWI, but to his disappointment I did not have anything to drink and was simply coming from a late movie in Stony Brook. Ironically, I had stopped at home first because I grabbed an expired credit card, and since the gas station was less than a mile away from my house I did not grab a jacket and only had a t-shirt on: It was 15F that night. Anyways, I get gas and start going home. I only have to make one right, and then latter one left onto my street, and am moving about 35 mph on a completely empty 30 mph road. I am in no hurry as at best I can save 10 seconds going 45mph, and there are a lot of drunk drivers around that time on Saturday night - Sunday morning. All of a sudden, I see an SUV driving FAST behind me, and catching up to me. We actually got hail that night, and my brakes being not like they used to be and not knowing the state of the driver behind me, I turn on my signal and make a right at the first available stop sign, onto a street that is one before my normal route.

The SUV behind me follows, at this point I suspect it may possibly be a LEO and actually feel slightly safer, because I am not doing anything wrong nor have been drinking. Intending to make the next left and simply continue to my house, I take the road to the end to a T-intersection, pull up to the STOP sign, turn the left signal on, stop completely, street is completely empty in both directions, and the viewing distance is good for at least a mile in each, so I make a left...and then the police lights go on. As I said, I am not worried since I have not been drinking, my lights are on, and I feel I have obeyed all traffic laws as I have driven in this area many, many times. The officer walks up to my car, asks what I am doing, and where I am coming from, and whether I have been drinking. Then he tells me that he pulled me over because there is a sign forbidding left turns at that intersection, I am completely flabbergasted - I have been on that road in the past, and although it is not my usual route I would have remembered there was a no-left-turn sign. However, hoping that it is more of a routine DUI/DWI stop I do not argue or question the policeman's observation, hand over my Dl and registration and hope to be let off with a warning. It is 3:02 at that time, my driver side window is wide open, and it is very cold. The officer does not return with my DL, reg and insurance until 3:40, by then I am freezing and don't know if my car is even going to start with having the inside and glove compartment light on for 35 minutes.

What is worse the cop is carrying a ticket for violating NYS V&T, Article 28:1166B. Then he proceeds to tell me the no-left-turn sign from Elton Ave (regular two-way single lane street connecting to Roanoke Ave) is a new thing since AUGUST-SEPTEMBER, 2013 in order to ease traffic on Roanoke Ave (regular single lane - two way street). Now, at this point I am fuming inside because:
a) it is 3, well almost 4AM and not a single car is on Roanoke - NOT a defense but certainly a point worth considering from a local LEO perspective.
b) I did stop at the stop sign, looked in both directions, and remained cautious. To the best of my recollection, the no-left-turn would have had to be a written sign before the stop sign, because I looked at the stop sign several times and did not notice a huge left arrow with a line across it.
c) It is an extremely recent change in local ordinance, and a warning would certainly have made sure I never make this mistake again
d) The officer made me sit in my car in freezing cold weather for close to 40 minutes.
e) I am less than a minute from my house, and have only made this alteration to my route because of wanting to be a defensive driver and avoid a possible but needless accident from a fast moving SUV behind me.

However, I just accept the ticket, say nothing, and get home 30 seconds later cursing the officer for being a total jerk, and possibly braindead if it takes him 40 minutes to fill out a traffic ticket. I look at the ticket and the section/subsection and to my surprise the NYS V&T 1166B corresponds to:
"S 1166. Required position for turning at alley, driveway, private road
or onto property off the roadway. The driver of a vehicle intending to
turn from a roadway into an alley, driveway, private road or onto
property off the roadway, shall approach the turn as follows:
(b) Left turns from two-way roadways. The approach for a left turn
from a two-way roadway shall be made in that portion of the right half
of the roadway nearest the center thereof."

Obviously:
1. Roanoke Ave is not an alley,driveway,private road or a property off the roadway
2. The offense is not related to an improper position for a left turn
3. Both the section, and the subsection are incorrect: the correct section/subsection is:
S 1160. Required position and method of turning at intersections. The
driver of a vehicle intending to turn at an intersection shall do so as
follows:
(d) When markers, buttons, signs, or other markings are placed within
or adjacent to intersections and thereby require and direct that a
different course from that specified in this section be traveled by
vehicles turning at an intersection, no driver of a vehicle shall turn a
vehicle at an intersection other than as directed and required by such
markers, buttons, signs, or other markings.

If the ordinance change is very recent, was done simply to improve traffic flow during day hours as stated in the minutes from the town board meeting asking to adopt this law, and the police officer makes a fatal error (clerical error could have been one number off or a name misspelling, but an error in the violation code number, section and subsection seems like the officer is not as well versed in the V&T law as the law requires) I believe I can make a good case to have the ticket dismissed. At the very least, I intend to fight this ticket, and cross-examine the officer regarding his knowledge of the traffic law. I just want to know what you guys think, and what my best course of action might be in this situation.

 

[justalayman]

why didn't you roll up your window, close the glove box and turn off the inside light? For that matter, why didn't you start your car and turn the heater on?



if the violation charged is not applicable, you should beat it. I don't know if your area commonly amends a citation to reflect the proper code section but there is generally nothing preventing them from doing so.

 

[OHRoadwarrior]

1166B is an improper left turn from private property 1160b is an improper turn from a roadway. I propose your vision is as quirky as your sense of reality. The officer might dispute your reading of the legibility. Wait and see what is on the docket it might be the more correct 1160d. Are you really planning to attend court and claim your car is so unsafe for road use, you are afraid to have traffic near you?

 

[conanav]

why didn't you roll up your window, close the glove box and turn off the inside light? For that matter, why didn't you start your car and turn the heater on?



if the violation charged is not applicable, you should beat it. I don't know if your area commonly amends a citation to reflect the proper code section but there is generally nothing preventing them from doing so.

Car has power locks and windows, and the lights go on and then off when you turn it key for electronics, which may or may not appear as trying to turn the car on. Doing so to close the window did not seem like a wise choice at first, and then less and less so as the wait was getting longer.The last thing I wanted to do was appear like someone trying to start the car and get away, and I still thought a warning was going to be the only result. Inside light was the same thing, I turn it off, it will appear suspicious. I turn to close the glove compartment, and then turn it off, it appears even worse, as if I got something from the compartment, perhaps even under the backseat, and then turned the light off.

The violation charge is not applicable, and I have heard that a citation can be amended, but only until a certain point. In other words if I plead not guilty and get a chance to cross examine the police officer, the charge on record will be 1166B instead of 1160D so a charge amendment should no longer be possible. Obviously, I realize these assumptions may be myths or misheard stories, opinions etc. and that is exactly the reason for me starting this thread.

 

[justalayman]

conanav;3226528]Car has power locks and windows, and the lights go on and then off when you turn it key for electronics, which may or may not appear as trying to turn the car on.

so turn the car on.

Doing so to close the window did not seem like a wise choice at first, and then less and less so as the wait was getting longer.The last thing I wanted to do was appear like someone trying to start the car and get away, and I still thought a warning was going to be the only result. Inside light was the same thing, I turn it off, it will appear suspicious.

You are a bit paranoid./

I turn to close the glove compartment, and then turn it off, it appears even worse, as if I got something from the compartment, perhaps even under the backseat, and then turned the light off.

again, paranoia strikes.

my point is: I sure as heck aren't going to sit there with the window open. Would you leave it open if it was raining? really really hard?

The violation charge is not applicable, and I have heard that a citation can be amended, but only until a certain point. In other words if I plead not guilty and get a chance to cross examine the police officer, the charge on record will be 1166B instead of 1160D so a charge amendment should no longer be possible. Obviously, I realize these assumptions may be myths or misheard stories, opinions etc. and that is exactly the reason for me starting this thread.

they have until the statute of limitations for whatever charge they are amending it to to amend the citation. That is usually somewhere between 90 days and a year in most low level crimes.

 

[conanav]

1166B is an improper left turn from private property 1160b is an improper turn from a roadway. I propose your vision is as quirky as your sense of reality. Are you really planning to attend court and claim your car is so unsafe for road use, you are afraid to have traffic near you?

1166B, as I copied directly from the NYS T&V law: "S 1166. Required position for turning at alley, driveway, private road
or onto property off the roadway. The driver of a vehicle intending to
turn from a roadway into an alley, driveway, private road or onto
property off the roadway, shall approach the turn as follows:
(b) Left turns from two-way roadways. The approach for a left turn
from a two-way roadway shall be made in that portion of the right half
of the roadway nearest the center thereof."

1)I certainly did not turn into an alley, driveway, private road, or onto property off the roadway. How is the citation for 1166B appropriate?

1160B states that : S 1160. Required position and method of turning at intersections. The
driver of a vehicle intending to turn at an intersection shall do so as
follows: (b) Left turns on two-way roadways. At any intersection where traffic
is permitted to move in both directions on each roadway entering the
intersection, an approach for a left turn shall be made in that portion
of the right half of the roadway nearest the center line thereof and by
passing to the right of such center line where it enters the
intersection and after entering the intersection the left turn shall be
made so as to leave the intersection to the right of the center line of
the roadway being entered. Whenever practicable the left turn shall be
made in that portion of the intersection to the left of the center of
the intersection.

2)Given the ticket, the left turn at the intersection between Elton Street and Roanoke Ave (Elton onto Roanoke) is not permitted and a charge of improper position and method of turning when permitted cannot apply.

3) My car is certainly in good condition to stop when travelling at 35mph, but I am certainly allowed to feel scared when being approached by a car moving 50 mph behind me on a road with a speed limit of 30 at 3:00 am on Sunday morning. If you are suggesting that the SUV was moving slower than 50mph, I am certainly interested in how he managed to get directly behind me at the stop sign on Ostrander and Elton, when he was not behind me at the light on Ostrander and Old Country Road, and the distance between the two points is only 3/4 of a mile. Drivers are routinely instructed to remain vigilant, and minimize any risk of accident, whether because of weather or other approaching vehicles. As mentioned already, I am not looking to dispute the reasons for being followed by a police vehicle, I am trying to dispute the citations, the reasons for change in ordinance, and the improper code section and subsection written on the ticket.

 

[conanav]

so turn the car on.



You are a bit paranoid./


again, paranoia strikes.

my point is: I sure as heck aren't going to sit there with the window open. Would you leave it open if it was raining? really really hard?


they have until the statute of limitations for whatever charge they are amending it to to amend the citation. That is usually somewhere between 90 days and a year in most low level crimes.

Perhaps I was being overcautious, (if not paranoid) but the wait for the police officer to return for so long did make me very uneasy. I certainly did not want to get a citation for anything, and did not want to make the officer feel uneasy about my behavior. From his perspective, I was not drinking but perhaps I may have been trying to hide something else in the car when turning the lights off etc. Obviously I am not a lawyer, and in fact have never even been pulled over as a driver before last night. I was not sure if his fear for own safety because of turning the car on or turning the light off might give him a reason to write a citation, ask to search the car, or dozens of other things. Most people do get intimidated when getting pulled over, especially if it happens for the first time and they believe they have not committed a traffic violation.

If such were to happen again, I would certainly try to close the window, but that is really not the main reason for my grievance.

 

[OHRoadwarrior]

No one can dispute what the ticket says. We cannot see a copy. It could say 1160d. Again, when the charge is filed, you will be able to determine what statute the writing was intended to say.

 

[justalayman]

conanav;3226535]Perhaps I was being overcautious, (if not paranoid) but the wait for the police officer to return for so long did make me very uneasy. I certainly did not want to get a citation for anything,

and we see how that worked out for ya. You got cold and still got a ticket.


I wonder if he wasn't just sitting back there in his cruiser waiting to see if you would roll up the window, chuckling all the time.





and did not want to make the officer feel uneasy about my behavior. From his perspective,

I was not drinking but perhaps I may have been trying to hide something else in the car when turning the lights off etc

. I understand your point but screw it; no reason for you to freeze yourself.

here's something better; don't even turn on your inside light

and yes, I know that wasn't your main point. Just telling you to not be so freaked about getting stopped. No need to freeze yourself. If you started the car and he had a problem with it, he would tell you.

 

[conanav]

No one can dispute what the ticket says. We cannot see a copy. It could say 1160d. Again, when the charge is filed, you will be able to determine what statute the writing was intended to say.

The ticket is not a pen-and-paper ticket but a computer printout, and the 1166B is present twice, and is indisputable. I can certainly provide a scan of that, if that would somehow convince you. I am more interested in my legal recourse, if the violation code is unequivocally stated as 1166B when the correct violation code is 1160D.

 

[HighwayMan]

Why did you even shut the car off to begin with?


Request a supporting deposition and see what it says.

 

[You Are Guilty]

Have you checked to see whether the intersection even has a "no left turn" sign posted? (Google maps' photo is from May 2012, so not very helpful).

 

[conanav]

Why did you even shut the car off to begin with?


Request a supporting deposition and see what it says.

I honestly thought turning the car off was normal procedure.

The supporting deposition states.

1.(Law/Section/Subsection) 1166B - again wrong section and subsection
[2-7 driver and car info]
8. Additional Information: Operator observed making an prohibited left turn at the intersection of Elton St and Roanoke Ave. Said intersection is clearly marked prohibiting same.
then at the bottom it says affirmed under penalty of perjury and there is officer's signature.

 

[conanav]

Have you checked to see whether the intersection even has a "no left turn" sign posted? (Google maps' photo is from May 2012, so not very helpful).

I just checked the intersection, I wish I had taken a picture but I was the one driving, my passenger did not have his phone out, and there were people behind me.

The sign is very small, in comparison to the very large stop sign above it, and states "Right Turn Only". The sign is so small, that two of the cars waiting directly behind me tonight made the same error I made two nights ago, heck even my passenger stated that he has actually made the same error today because of how inconspicuous the sign is. This picture (hmmm...I have no idea how to include a picture or a link with a picture) may give you an idea, but the sign is black letters on white background, does not include the time, and is much smaller than the stop sign.

The sign is not an R3, but an R5-805 sign. I am even more displeased after seeing the actual sign, because an R3-2 sign, or even a "NO LEFT TURNS" sign would have been far more effective, given its placement underneath a much larger and more important stop sign.

Another legal point is that MUTCD states that: Standard: If used, signs for traffic prohibitions or restrictions shall be placed in advance of the prohibition or restriction so that traffic can use an alternate route or turn around.

I understand that placing it right at the intersection MAY be considered in advance of the prohibition by certain judges, but placing it right at the intersection when a person is expected to turn their left blinker on 100 feet ahead of the intersection, would actually make any driver attempting to turn left until seeing the above sign to be in violation of section 1163, when changing their original intention and turning on the right turning signal (as now required), as well as in violation of section 1166A (improper positioning for a right turn).

Given the above argument, the poorly chosen regulatory sign, and the section and subsection fatal error present twice - on the citation and the officer's deposition - I find it hard to believe that any judge would not dismiss this citation.

 

[You Are Guilty]

Given the above argument, the poorly chosen regulatory sign, and the section and subsection fatal error present twice - on the citation and the officer's deposition - I find it hard to believe that any judge would not dismiss this citation.

And given the above statement, I see you've never been to traffic court before

Feel free to make the argument, but realistically, I would expect a slight to moderate reduction in the fine amount, at best. Anything beyond that should be considered a huge win.

(To clarify - I'm referring to the placement of the sign. I think the wrong statute cited is a much stronger argument and if you are careful procedurally how you argue it, should result in a dismissal. Problem is most people are not careful).