Swine Flu Speed Trap

[mcb3]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? TEXAS

Yesterday morning I was pulled over by a police officer in Denton, Texas. He asked for my license and registration without stating why I was pulled over. When I asked him why I was stopped, his reply was that I was speeding in a school speed zone. He said he clocked me going 33 in a 20 mile per hour school speed zone. The regular speed of the street is posted as 30 mph.

Shocked, I told the officer that I did not see the lights flashing. His reply was that they were not flashing because the City of Denton had turned them off for the week when the Denton ISD closed the schools to prevent the potential spread of the swine flu virus. He went on to say the lights did not need to be flashing in order for the zone to be in effect! Huh?

The CDC revised their earlier recommendations and many schools decided to reopen earlier than was originally stated. As it turns out, the Denton ISD would have still been closed based on Denton's earlier announcements.
The police officer said Denton ISD had decided to reconvene schools mid-week, after all. Yesterday, May 7, 2009, was the first day the school was back in session. He further stated, however, that no one had turned the flashing school speed lights on.

In other words, the City of Denton closed the schools to protect their children. When the virus was declared to be no longer an issue, they sent the kids to school. That's fine, but isn't the greater danger that the City of Denton averted a potential health crises only to create a greater potential hazard by sending children off to school with no flashing warning signs in the school zones to alert motorists?

I live in McKinney, which is in Collin County, and is 20-30 miles east of Denton and Denton County. Though I had heard that all schools in Denton were closed for the week, I was unaware that they were opened again mid-week.

The morning school speed limit had nearly expired when I was stopped. Had I known I was in an active school zone area, I would have certainly obeyed the 20 mile per hour speed limit. There were no flashing signs, no crossing guards, no buses, no children, and no other cars on the street. In fact, there was no way for a person unfamiliar with the area, as I am, to even know school was in session.

The officer said the lights did not have to be flashing for the speed limit to be in effect, but upon passing by the area again later, I looked closely at the speed limit sign, and the hours are posted in much smaller font below the speed limit. And without the lights flashing, why would a motorist take note of a sign that was seemingly not applicable?

My belief is that I was going 33 in a 30 mile per hour speed zone and that I should not have been ticketed for being 13 miles over the limit, especially in a school zone! I have never had a ticket of any kind, and as a father of two young school-aged children, believe me, I take school speed zones seriously.

I cannot understand why the City of Denton would have turned off the lights during the normal school days/hours unless they expected that in doing so, they would be doing traffic a favor, allowing it to move along at its regular rate.

In McKinney, the school speed zone lights do not flash when school is out for an extended period of time. I don't think I have ever seen a person go 20 miles per hour when the school speed zone lights are off. However, according to the officer's comment, it is illegal to go above 20 mph during school speed zone time ranges, lights or not. I would like to find out what the official word is on this.

I feel that if the City of Denton was really concerned for the safety of the children, they would have turned the school speed zone lights back on as quickly as they moved to turn them off. If they could not accomplish this, they should have posted crossing guards or police cars with flashing lights at the beginnings of the school speed zones as a caution to traffic that school had been suddenly called back into session. Think of the law suits the city would have faced had a child been injured due to this negligence. As I said, I am unfamiliar with the area, and had no visual cues as to the situation when this police officer pulled out of the school parking lot after me.

The police officer was rather curt and abrupt. He did not seem concerned that I was puzzled over why he stopped me. I was not rude or discourteous, and neither was he, but he was totally disengaged. It gave me a very poor impression of my brief experience in Denton.

If I have to go to court to argue my position, I would be willing to do it. The thought that I would speed in a school zone is totally foreign to me. I understand that I could probably take defensive driving to negate the cost of this ticket and prevent impact to my insurance, but the issue is not time or money; it's that I feel I was more wronged against than wrong.

What are your suggestions?

Thanks!
--mcb3What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)?

[Maestro64]

Get documented fact that the lights were turned off, pictures and videos is a start, also if you can get something from the school on officer letter head stating the lights were off. I would do this ASAP and not wait since with time memory fade.

Then check to see what the law requires, some state say if kids are present then the school zone speed is enforced.

If lights are required only then I say you have case since the lights were not flashing the speed can not be enforces, the burden is on the city and school that they do their part. Also what does the sign say about the speed limit change, does it say only when flashing or times on the the sign as well.

In this case it comes down to what the signs say and what the law says. If what you describe it correct it looks like the officer took advantage of the fact that the lights were not flashing. Also, do not assume the officer knows the laws inside and out, they too make assumptions.

[I_Got_Banned]

The entire issue of when or whether the school district decided to reopen schools is irrelevant. Schools were open on the 7th and you were cited on the 7th.

The issue I would be looking into is whether the speed limit sign itself says "School Zone -20- When flashing" or does it say "School Zone -20- when Children Are Present"?

If it does on fact state "When Flashing" then I would also agree with Maestro that you would need to get some sort of confirmation that the lights were NOT flashing on that date. However, good luck getting that!!!

Any person who is responsible for that duty would be in fact assuming a huge amount of responsibility in a liability case by admitting that they failed in doing so.

With that being said, let me add that although most of the points that you stated are justified and can be considered reasonable, none will help you out in court so if you choose to fight this.

Originally Posted by mcb3

He went on to say the lights did not need to be flashing in order for the zone to be in effect! Huh?

That would be true if the sign itself stated the times when a school zone limit is enforced. Unless the sign ONLY states “when flashing” as I stated earlier.

Originally Posted by mcb3

The CDC revised their earlier recommendations and many schools decided to reopen earlier than was originally stated. As it turns out, the Denton ISD would have still been closed based on Denton's earlier announcements.

It is also possible that they made a subsequent announcement about their decision to re-open the schools otherwise nobody would have shown up. Just because you missed that subsequent announcement does not mean anything.

Originally Posted by mcb3

In other words, the City of Denton closed the schools to protect their children. When the virus was declared to be no longer an issue, they sent the kids to school. That's fine, but isn't the greater danger that the City of Denton averted a potential health crises only to create a greater potential hazard by sending children off to school with no flashing warning signs in the school zones to alert motorists?

Exactly my point when I stated that I highly doubt that you’ll get anyone to verbally admit to failing to turn the light on, let alone to give that to you in writing.

Originally Posted by mcb3

I live in McKinney, which is in Collin County, and is 20-30 miles east of Denton and Denton County. Though I had heard that all schools in Denton were closed for the week, I was unaware that they were opened again mid-week.

Again, an announcement was probably made; you just happened to have missed it.

Originally Posted by mcb3

The morning school speed limit had nearly expired when I was stopped

“Nearly expired” still means it is “in effect”.

Originally Posted by mcb3

Had I known I was in an active school zone area, I would have certainly obeyed the 20 mile per hour speed limit.

No doubt… However, ignorance is bliss, although it will not stand up in court as an excuse. And by “ignorance“, I am not, by any means or description, suggesting that you are ignorant. Only that you were “unaware”.

Originally Posted by mcb3

There were no flashing signs, no crossing guards, no buses, no children, and no other cars on the street. In fact, there was no way for a person unfamiliar with the area, as I am, to even know school was in session.

If any of those indications which you stated were the signs to look for as an indication to a school zone being in effect, then we wouldn’t need school zone speed limit signs and/or flashing lights to alert us to the fact that we are in a school zone.

Originally Posted by mcb3

The officer said the lights did not have to be flashing for the speed limit to be in effect, but upon passing by the area again later, I looked closely at the speed limit sign, and the hours are posted in much smaller font below the speed limit. And without the lights flashing, why would a motorist take note of a sign that was seemingly not applicable?

I beg to differ… If the sign posted the time when the school zone is in effect, then the flashing light maybe only an added feature and it might not be a requirement to the enforcement of the school zone speed limit. THAT, depends upon the Texas Transportation code (which by the way, I did search through but was unable to find any definitive regulation either way). I will search some more, however, feel free to search through it on your own, and if you do not find anything relative, the I suggest that you search the “Manual for Uniform Traffic Control Devices” which applies nationwide or the most recent Texas Supplement to that entire guide. You may find some more information there.

Originally Posted by mcb3

My belief is that I was going 33 in a 30 mile per hour speed zone and that I should not have been ticketed for being 13 miles over the limit, especially in a school zone .

By definition, 33 in 30 is still speeding, although I understand you reasoning, you were cited for 33 in 20. Prove that the 20mph limit did not apply and you will be exonerated. Just do yourself a favor by not using the “I was diving at 33 in 30“. It doesn’t prove your innocence nor disprove your guilt in court.

Originally Posted by mcb3

I cannot understand why the City of Denton would have turned off the lights during the normal school days/hours unless they expected that in doing so, they would be doing traffic a favor, allowing it to move along at its regular rate.

Once a speed zone limit is enacted into law, and signs are posted accordingly, the City, wherever it may be, is not at liberty to make decisions as a favor to drivers. If they feel the speed limit is too slow, they would have to follow the Texas Transportation statutes to amend the speed limit rather than suggest it be enforced or not on a random basis.

Moreover, and in light of the huge liability that the city will be undertaking by “allowing traffic to move along at its regular rate”, I highly doubt that this reasoning was in anyway taken into consideration. You, as a parent, would be first in line to complain, wouldn’t you?

Originally Posted by mcb3

In McKinney, the school speed zone lights do not flash when school is out for an extended period of time. I don't think I have ever seen a person go 20 miles per hour when the school speed zone lights are off. However, according to the officer's comment, it is illegal to go above 20 mph during school speed zone time ranges, lights or not. I would like to find out what the official word is on this.

It depends upon which part of the sign (times posted versus flashing lights) is considered regulatory and which is considered advisory (if any). I will search some more and post whatever I can find, if anything.

Originally Posted by mcb3

The police officer was rather curt and abrupt. He did not seem concerned that I was puzzled over why he stopped me…. but he was totally disengaged.

That might be because almost every person he makes contact with tends to act concerned and confused as to why they got pulled over. So he may have learned to tune that aspect of the communication out.

Originally Posted by mcb3

…but the issue is not time or money; it's that I feel I was more wronged against than wrong.

Fighting a citation based upon a principle of time, money or personal feeling for that matter will not benefit you in any way. Find some legal basis to fight it, or save you time and pay them the money and put it behind you…

[mcb3]

The sign has a single flasher and is a single sign assembly.

So it looks like S5-1 [in the MUTCD] but has the time ranges posted where the WHEN FLASHING text would appear.

These time ranges appear to have been posted over some other text as the square they are in is much newer / whiter looking that the other areas of the sign.

I looked through Texas Transportation Code, MUTCD, TMUTCD and various TxDOT documents and never found anything conclusive that supported my position or the officer's position.

The city officials admitted they turned the lights off while school was closed due to the swine flu but failed to turn a couple of them back on before school reopened the first day.

I am happy to say the ticket was dismissed yesterday by the prosecutor for the City of Denton!

All the people I dealt with were very professional, courteous, honest and understanding of my issue.

A big thanks is in order to the following positions / groups:

Communications Officer of Denton ISD
Communications Liaison for the City of Denton
Streets Department for the City of Denton

Thanks also for this forum and the people that contribute to it...

--mcb3

[lealea1005]

He went on to say the lights did not need to be flashing in order for the zone to be in effect! Huh?

For what it's worth......

My daughter was a student at UNT and got a ticket for doing 32 in a 20 in front of the elementary school in Denton. The lights were not flashing. She went to court. She lost because, apparently, the officer is correct. She paid the fine and had to pay to go to defensive driving school, as an out of state license holder, in order to avoid points.

Glad your situation turned out better than hers.

[Maestro64]

Congratulation!!!

It sounds like you did your research and show the court that you were not guilty.

It does sound like the police took advantage of a situation and try to capitalize on it. Since you did your research they had no choose but to dismiss.

[I_Got_Banned]

Congratulations indeed!

Originally Posted by mcb3

A big thanks is in order to the following positions / groups:

Communications Officer of Denton ISD
Communications Liaison for the City of Denton
Streets Department for the City of Denton

Thanks also for this forum and the people that contribute to it...

--mcb3

I think you forgot to thank Denton's men and women in unifrom 'cause without them, none of this would have happened!

I'm just kidding you...