Ticket for Disregarding Red Light

[Primessio]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)?

This is in Indiana

On March 1st, 1:30 AM I was pulled over for a red light violation of turning left on red. It was 1:30 AM and there were absolutely other than me there were absolutely no other cars on the road. I didn't see the car so it was likely he was hiding out in a private driveway. If I take this to court what are the chances of me winning under the following cirumstances?

1. The cop was hiding on private property which is not allowed unless the owner has given permission. If this is so then the ticket must be thrown out.

2. This was at about 1:30 AM and many areas do have rules which state that during certain hours such as Midnight to 4 or 5 am, then red lights may be treated like 4 way stop signs and if all other lanes are clear, you can proceed through them. I used to be a truck driver and I do have a somewhat humorous story based on this. I used to drive turkeys from Indiana to Pennsylvania and one early morning about 2 or 2:30 AM after I dropped off my load, I went to go get fuel before going back to the plant and sleeping. So I went to the main highway(this was New Oxford, Pennsylvania which is a small town just a few miles form Getttysburg) and I turned onto it and drove down it to the cheapest gas station which had diesel fuel. The station was just beyond an intersection and when I got to it the light turned red. I stopped and waited through the entire the light and when it turned green, I drove through the intersection and turned into the station and started fueling up.

As I was fueling up a Pennsylvania state trooper drives up, gets out of his car and walks over. He was quite surprised to see someone so young driving a semi truck(this was back in 2012 and I was 25 at the time) and asks to see my license. After I show him my license and paperwork he explains that he came over because this is the first time ANYONE got fuel from a normal gas station(it was cheap and I didn't have enough fuel to get to the nearest truck stop which was near Harrisburg, nor could I legally due to the laws on truck driving hours) and then said that a lot of areas all around the country have rules that allow people to treat solid red lights as stop signs at certain hours such as 11PM Midnight to 4 or 5 AM so people don't have to wait at lights and waste time and gas on an abandoned road. So after that and a little bit more talking I thanked him for the information and he went on his way. I finished fueling, paid the very surprised clerk in the store and drove back to the turkey plant to get some sleep.

Ever since that I night I was able to stop and then proceed to drive through all red lights in that area and when I saw a cop I would often wave to them and they would wave back and either stay where they were or continue on their way.

This is actually a TRUE story.

3. The wording of the ticket itself says that it was for "Disregarding a stop light." According to the dictionary the word disregard means to "to pay no attention to; leave out of consideration; ignore" implying that I just blew through the red light without paying it any heed. If we go by the cop's version then he may also add that I was was flipping the light double fingers and/or mooning it as I blew through it.(not really but it does add excitement haha). I argue this by simply stating the truth that I came to the light, stopped, looked around and saw absolutely NO ONE around, and remembering how in many places it's common to the rule for the story above is in place, I then safely and carefully proceeded through the intersection.

4. I invoke the "right to a speedy trial" The stop and ticket was on March 1st and court date set by officer is on April 16th. In many states the right to a speedy trial is 45 days, and if that is the case in Indiana then the default date is already setting it close. If I call to reschedule the date, can I say that the future dates are past the "speedy trial cutoff date"?


Also I can say that I was in the intersection when the light turned yellow, and when you turning left and already IN the intersection at that time then you have to go to CLEAR the intersection and setting your car in reverse to back up would just be stupid so I cleared it in the quickest and safest way possible. If the officer has video to dispute this then it would prove my argument for number 3.


Alternatively I can do the old trick where I try to reschedule the court date to a day where the officer is off duty and just hope that he has better things to do than to go to the courthouse just to mess around with my case, though from what I looked up, this is can be a crapshoot at best in that in many times the police are just fine with getting extra overtime to go to court when they're supposed to be off duty or that he can just call later on and reschedule the date again.

I do understand that my chances of winning this are most likely slim at best but money is tight ATM and due to having a CDL the traffic school option is not possible as having a CDL license makes you ineligible for traffic school in events like this meaning that you either have to fight it in court and win, or suck it up, pay the fine, deal with the higher insurance premiums, deal with the points on your record and then turn to a life of crime because no reputable company will hire drivers that have offense on their record. (Ok no really with the whole life of crime thing, but still this driving companies will look at this)

 

[Just Blue]

Please stay out of Mass with your "driving habits".

 

[HighwayMan]

That was WAY too long of a post to read about you getting a simple red light ticket. When you re-post and stick to the relevant facts then I'll have a look.

I will say that if you're looking to play Perry Mason you'll probably be in for a rude awakening. Consulting with a local attorney would be a smart thing to do.

 

[FlyingRon]

1. Cops are allowed to be sneaky. The principle you are asserting doesn't exist. Perhaps you are confusing the law that says the police can't enforce traffic infractions that take place on private property unless given permission to do so.

2. Unless such a law existed in the jurisidiction you were in, it means nothing. Frankly, he was either wrong or lying. You can not run red lights in Pennsylvania regardless of what time it is.

3. You're not getting anywhere arguing that regarding a light means looking at it and deciding to ignore it. Furhter, the synopsis of the citation is irrelevant. The actual text of IC 9-21-3-7 is quite explict about what you have to do facing a red signal.

4. Once again, get your "in many states" ideas out of your head. Many states are IMMATERIAL. What is only material is Indiana. Since this is now a civil offense in Indiana, there's no speedy trial requirement.

At trial, your assertion that the light was yellow is not going to outweigh the expert witness (the cop) that the light was red when you crossed the stop line, or if no stop line, the cross walk, or if no cross walk the near side of the intersection.
If he testifies to something else, then you may have him.

 

[tranquility]

1. The cop was hiding on private property which is not allowed unless the owner has given permission. If this is so then the ticket must be thrown out.

Why do you say that?

2. This was at about 1:30 AM and many areas do have rules which state that during certain hours such as Midnight to 4 or 5 am, then red lights may be treated like 4 way stop signs and if all other lanes are clear, you can proceed through them.

Does the specific area you are in have such a "rule"?

. The wording of the ticket itself says that it was for "Disregarding a stop light." According to the dictionary the word disregard means to "to pay no attention to; leave out of consideration; ignore" implying that I just blew through the red light without paying it any heed. If we go by the cop's version then he may also add that I was was flipping the light double fingers and/or mooning it as I blew through it.(not really but it does add excitement haha). I argue this by simply stating the truth that I came to the light, stopped, looked around and saw absolutely NO ONE around, and remembering how in many places it's common to the rule for the story above is in place, I then safely and carefully proceeded through the intersection.

Do you know what your statute demands when there is a red light? Hint:

(3) Steady red indication means the following:
(A) Except as provided in clause (B), vehicular traffic facing a steady circular red signal alone shall stop at a clearly marked stop line. However, if there is no clearly marked stop line, vehicular traffic shall stop before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection. If there is no crosswalk, vehicular traffic shall stop before entering the intersection and shall remain standing until an indication to proceed is shown.

You need to do that until the light either becomes green or yellow. If not, you have disregarded it.

4. I invoke the "right to a speedy trial" The stop and ticket was on March 1st and court date set by officer is on April 16th. In many states the right to a speedy trial is 45 days, and if that is the case in Indiana then the default date is already setting it close. If I call to reschedule the date, can I say that the future dates are past the "speedy trial cutoff date"?

No. It is not a statute of limitation, it is a right. If you reschedule, you have given up that right.

Also I can say that I was in the intersection when the light turned yellow, and when you turning left and already IN the intersection at that time then you have to go to CLEAR the intersection and setting your car in reverse to back up would just be stupid so I cleared it in the quickest and safest way possible. If the officer has video to dispute this then it would prove my argument for number 3.

If that is what happened, I would agree with you that is not disregarding an automatic signal.

Alternatively I can do the old trick where I try to reschedule the court date to a day where the officer is off duty and just hope that he has better things to do than to go to the courthouse just to mess around with my case, though from what I looked up, this is can be a crapshoot at best in that in many times the police are just fine with getting extra overtime to go to court when they're supposed to be off duty or that he can just call later on and reschedule the date again.

They're usually "fine" with it because it results in overtime pay.

There is nothing in what you wrote that seems a winner. Since you can't get traffic school anyway, it only takes time and effort to fight it. I have no problem with trying. I think the "it was yellow" is your only option, if true. See if that convinces the judge.

 

[Primessio]

Please stay out of Mass with your "driving habits".

If you've come to the conclusion that I'm a terrible and dangerous driver because I stop and then go through abandoned red lights in the early AM hours because a POLICE OFFICER himself told me that it was legal then you really need to work on your "jumping to conclusion habits". You must also freak out anytime you see anyone driving any vehicle ever.

That was WAY too long of a post to read about you getting a simple red light ticket. When you re-post and stick to the relevant facts then I'll have a look.

I will say that if you're looking to play Perry Mason you'll probably be in for a rude awakening. Consulting with a local attorney would be a smart thing to do.

It's a long post but the information is relevant. If you don't have the attention span to read books, or paragraphs for that matter, then there is little I can do. I would love to consult with a lawyer, but even if a lawyer can get me off then the costs of paying him or her would very likely be a lot higher than just paying for the ticket and dealing with any insurance premium increases in the first place.

1. Cops are allowed to be sneaky. The principle you are asserting doesn't exist. Perhaps you are confusing the law that says the police can't enforce traffic infractions that take place on private property unless given permission to do so.

2. Unless such a law existed in the jurisidiction you were in, it means nothing. Frankly, he was either wrong or lying. You can not run red lights in Pennsylvania regardless of what time it is.

3. You're not getting anywhere arguing that regarding a light means looking at it and deciding to ignore it. Furhter, the synopsis of the citation is irrelevant. The actual text of IC 9-21-3-7 is quite explict about what you have to do facing a red signal.

4. Once again, get your "in many states" ideas out of your head. Many states are IMMATERIAL. What is only material is Indiana. Since this is now a civil offense in Indiana, there's no speedy trial requirement.

At trial, your assertion that the light was yellow is not going to outweigh the expert witness (the cop) that the light was red when you crossed the stop line, or if no stop line, the cross walk, or if no cross walk the near side of the intersection.
If he testifies to something else, then you may have him.

1. I'm not saying that cops can't be sneaky. I know full that it is fully in their right to hide off the road in the woods or in the bushes or in any hard to see location to do their business. However, they can NOT do this on PRIVATE property such as driveways unless they have permission from the property owner. I personally several people who have gotten tickets from cops who did this and have gotten their cases dismissed because the cop set up his trap on private property. On the flip side I also know of a person who did get ticketed and had did lose his case because the cop DID have permission from the property owner who was tired of all the cars zooming past his house well above the speed limit.

Now in my case the officer may very well have been on public property or have said permission from the owner in which case this argument would be moot anyways. The only way to know for sure would be to request a copy of his notes and any evidence he has.

2. and 4. He may have been wrong or full or **** when he told me that, or they may not simply care. All I know is that he told me it's perfectly fine to treat stop lights as 4 way stops in the early AM hours so long as you're safe and careful about it. I have since done so and have had no problems until now. I am fully aware that say "this is ok to do in other places" is almost definitely NOT going to sway the judge over to my side, and am looking up the specific laws for my area. However, this is also a possibility that stating the circumstances can at least get me a reduced penalty passed by the judge or a deal with the prosecutor. At the very worst, all the judge is going to do is say "Nice try buddy, but nope you lose now go pay your fine" Well I guess the very worst is that I can be an ******* and get arrested for being in contempt of court but I'm a pretty nice guy and won't do that.

3. There was no ignoring involved. I came to the light, stopped, looked around, saw the entire area was completely abandoned, and then proceeded on. This falls in with my points above and the argument for that is based on this. Also the wording may matter. I know of people who tried to be their own lawyers and get fancy and get burned but I also know that some judges can be very picky with how things are worded out. The ticket clearly says "disregarded" as in completely ignored and/or blew past without a second thought which is definitely not true. Of course most likely this won't work and the judge will again be like "Nice try buddy, now go pay out the ass" but there is a chance that said judge may be one of the picky ones who requires things to be exactly worded properly. If I do consult a lawyer this is definitely something that I would ask him about.

Why do you say that?
Does the specific area you are in have such a "rule"?
Do you know what your statute demands when there is a red light? Hint:
You need to do that until the light either becomes green or yellow. If not, you have disregarded it.
No. It is not a statute of limitation, it is a right. If you reschedule, you have given up that right.
If that is what happened, I would agree with you that is not disregarding an automatic signal.
They're usually "fine" with it because it results in overtime pay.

There is nothing in what you wrote that seems a winner. Since you can't get traffic school anyway, it only takes time and effort to fight it. I have no problem with trying. I think the "it was yellow" is your only option, if true. See if that convinces the judge.

1. Because it's um true. At least in my area it is. Cops can't just hide on private areas if they don't have permission. I know several people who have had tickets thrown out because of this. They were speeding, cop pulls them over and tickets them. They do some research and find out that cop was on private property without permission when he caught them speeding or whatever, acquaintance uses this argument in court, judge dismisses case.

2. I'm in the process of looking that up, if so then I should be off scot free. If not, I may still be able to use this if I have to actually fight my case in court. There is little to no chance that the judge will actually dismiss the case based on that argument but I may be able to get a reduced fine, or even possibly call in ahead and work out a deal with the prosecutor or whoever else is in charge of the case.

3. Yes I see the law, but the ticket does not state person did not "stop at a clearly marked stop line. However, if there is no clearly marked stop line, vehicular traffic shall stop before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection. If there is no crosswalk, vehicular traffic shall stop before entering the intersection and shall remain standing until an indication to proceed is shown" it simply states "disregarded" as in completely ignored or blew off which is definitely not true. Now I've no doubt that other people have tried to use wording and definitions like this to plead their cases and have gotten burned but I also know that judges and lawyers can be very particular about the wording of these.

4. That may very well be the case, but from what I have read the amount of days is also a determinant. The ticket was issued on March 1st, and the court date is set for April 16 which is 45 days. In many states(Ive done google search for Indiana and only get legal mumbo jumble but I'll do more research later) the cutoff is 45 days and others it is 60. Now I know you can't keep continually calling in over and over until you get to the cutoff but if the default date is already set so close to said cutoff then there is a good possibility of this working. The real factor is whether or not the speedy trial even applies to traffic cases at all as I have read arguments(including a particular intense one on this very forum) that they both do and don't. This is probably something I should ask a laywer if I can get one for cheap.


5. That may very well be my only chance.

6. I figured as much. I guess another possibility if I want to be sneaky is to try and see if the officer has any special training days and then make the date for that. While many officers have no problem going in on an off day for an hour or two to get some easy overtime, it seems that skipping out on training to deal with a minor violation would be a bit trickier to do.

 

[Mass_Shyster]

Please stay out of Mass with your "driving habits".

Why? Sounds like he'd fit right in.

 

[davew128]

Why? Sounds like he'd fit right in.

Ted Kennedy has been sober for 6 1/2 years now.

 

[FlyingRon]

1. I can't vouch for what your friends told you but it will not get you off in Indiana (nor Pennsylvania, nor Virginia).

2. You were the one who used the "chose to ignore it" to quibble over the term "disregard." I was just responding to your strawman.

 

[Just Blue]

If you've come to the conclusion that I'm a terrible and dangerous driver because I stop and then go through abandoned red lights in the early AM hours because a POLICE OFFICER himself told me that it was legal then you really need to work on your "jumping to conclusion habits". You must also freak out anytime you see anyone driving any vehicle ever.



It's a long post but the information is relevant. If you don't have the attention span to read books, or paragraphs for that matter, then there is little I can do. I would love to consult with a lawyer, but even if a lawyer can get me off then the costs of paying him or her would very likely be a lot higher than just paying for the ticket and dealing with any insurance premium increases in the first place.



1. I'm not saying that cops can't be sneaky. I know full that it is fully in their right to hide off the road in the woods or in the bushes or in any hard to see location to do their business. However, they can NOT do this on PRIVATE property such as driveways unless they have permission from the property owner. I personally several people who have gotten tickets from cops who did this and have gotten their cases dismissed because the cop set up his trap on private property. On the flip side I also know of a person who did get ticketed and had did lose his case because the cop DID have permission from the property owner who was tired of all the cars zooming past his house well above the speed limit.

Now in my case the officer may very well have been on public property or have said permission from the owner in which case this argument would be moot anyways. The only way to know for sure would be to request a copy of his notes and any evidence he has.

2. and 4. He may have been wrong or full or **** when he told me that, or they may not simply care. All I know is that he told me it's perfectly fine to treat stop lights as 4 way stops in the early AM hours so long as you're safe and careful about it. I have since done so and have had no problems until now. I am fully aware that say "this is ok to do in other places" is almost definitely NOT going to sway the judge over to my side, and am looking up the specific laws for my area. However, this is also a possibility that stating the circumstances can at least get me a reduced penalty passed by the judge or a deal with the prosecutor. At the very worst, all the judge is going to do is say "Nice try buddy, but nope you lose now go pay your fine" Well I guess the very worst is that I can be an ******* and get arrested for being in contempt of court but I'm a pretty nice guy and won't do that.

3. There was no ignoring involved. I came to the light, stopped, looked around, saw the entire area was completely abandoned, and then proceeded on. This falls in with my points above and the argument for that is based on this. Also the wording may matter. I know of people who tried to be their own lawyers and get fancy and get burned but I also know that some judges can be very picky with how things are worded out. The ticket clearly says "disregarded" as in completely ignored and/or blew past without a second thought which is definitely not true. Of course most likely this won't work and the judge will again be like "Nice try buddy, now go pay out the ass" but there is a chance that said judge may be one of the picky ones who requires things to be exactly worded properly. If I do consult a lawyer this is definitely something that I would ask him about.




1. Because it's um true. At least in my area it is. Cops can't just hide on private areas if they don't have permission. I know several people who have had tickets thrown out because of this. They were speeding, cop pulls them over and tickets them. They do some research and find out that cop was on private property without permission when he caught them speeding or whatever, acquaintance uses this argument in court, judge dismisses case.

2. I'm in the process of looking that up, if so then I should be off scot free. If not, I may still be able to use this if I have to actually fight my case in court. There is little to no chance that the judge will actually dismiss the case based on that argument but I may be able to get a reduced fine, or even possibly call in ahead and work out a deal with the prosecutor or whoever else is in charge of the case.

3. Yes I see the law, but the ticket does not state person did not "stop at a clearly marked stop line. However, if there is no clearly marked stop line, vehicular traffic shall stop before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection. If there is no crosswalk, vehicular traffic shall stop before entering the intersection and shall remain standing until an indication to proceed is shown" it simply states "disregarded" as in completely ignored or blew off which is definitely not true. Now I've no doubt that other people have tried to use wording and definitions like this to plead their cases and have gotten burned but I also know that judges and lawyers can be very particular about the wording of these.

4. That may very well be the case, but from what I have read the amount of days is also a determinant. The ticket was issued on March 1st, and the court date is set for April 16 which is 45 days. In many states(Ive done google search for Indiana and only get legal mumbo jumble but I'll do more research later) the cutoff is 45 days and others it is 60. Now I know you can't keep continually calling in over and over until you get to the cutoff but if the default date is already set so close to said cutoff then there is a good possibility of this working. The real factor is whether or not the speedy trial even applies to traffic cases at all as I have read arguments(including a particular intense one on this very forum) that they both do and don't. This is probably something I should ask a laywer if I can get one for cheap.


5. That may very well be my only chance.

6. I figured as much. I guess another possibility if I want to be sneaky is to try and see if the officer has any special training days and then make the date for that. While many officers have no problem going in on an off day for an hour or two to get some easy overtime, it seems that skipping out on training to deal with a minor violation would be a bit trickier to do.

Goodness. Fight the ticket. Please P.M. me the location so I can attend.

 

[HighwayMan]

If you've come to the conclusion that I'm a terrible and dangerous driver because I stop and then go through abandoned red lights...

Abandoned red lights? Hilarious.

Another novel that I won't read. How do you guys do it?

 

[tranquility]

Abandoned red lights? Hilarious.

Another novel that I won't read. How do you guys do it?

To be fair, it is not "abandoned" but "disregarding", as in the statute.

 

[HighwayMan]

To be fair, it is not "abandoned" but "disregarding", as in the statute.

Didn't he say something to the effect that he "stops and goes through abandoned red lights"? So he disregards abandoned red lights.

 

[Just Blue]

Didn't he say something to the effect that he "stops and goes through abandoned red lights"? So he disregards abandoned red lights.

You mean those BIG RED BRIGHT LIGHTS?

 

[not2cleverRed]

You have not indicated that you were driving a motorcycle.

Therefore it is assumed that you were driving a car.

A solid (non-flashing) red light in IN means that you stop and wait until it's green. Even at 1:30 AM.

And no, pi is not 3. It's not even 22/7.