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  1. #1
    bboyes21 Guest

    Cool ticketed for Basic speed Law Can I fight and win?

    CALIFORNIA

    Hi I had a quick question. I am a college student and actually unable to afford to hire a lawyer but at the same time think I may have had a ticket written up that should not have been. So I am just looking for advice.
    Today I got a ticket as I left my new house (I just moved to bakersfield, CA). I was maybe a quarter mile out of the driveway when I was stopped by a motorcycle officer who was off his bike and out in the middle of the road waving at me to pull over as I approached him, which I did. He told me he clocked me at 43 in a 25, and asked for my information. He cited me for Speeding CVC 22350, and a seatbelt ticket as I had not yet put my belt on, (very stupid of me admittedly). Anyhow I know the cvc 22350 is the basic speed law. I was under the impression you could exceed the posted speed if it was not dangerous to do so. this was a clear, dry day, it was near a high school (next to the football field but no school in session or extracurriculars going on at all) on a Saturday and nobody was around traffic was light etc. I dont think 43 was all that unsafe at all for the conditions. Is this something I should fight? Does anyone win doing this? Any advice? I would appreciate any help. Thanks so much.

    Sincerely,
    Not In Need Of A Ticket! lol
  2. #2
    racer72 is offline Senior Member
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    I was under the impression you could exceed the posted speed if it was not dangerous to do so.
    Your impression is totally wrong. The only laws that exist that allow for exceeding the speed limit in a non emergency situation is when passing someone on a 2 lane road. Then you are required to return to the posted speed limit after the pass. And some states don't cite for speeding unless you are more than a certain speed over the limit, usually 5 mph. 18 mph doesn't come close to being legal. Nothing else in your post comes close to a valid reason to contest the citation.
    If you feel my answer is rude, mean, snarky or in anyway not to your liking, I did my job. You don't need to tell me.

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  3. #3
    ptlmejo is offline Member
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    The only laws that exist that allow for exceeding the speed limit in a non emergency situation is when passing someone on a 2 lane road.
    Interesting. See, in WI you do that, and it's a ticket.

    Also, some states have different speed laws as to how they're written. Some states, like WI, are absolute. If it's 55 and you're 56, it could be a citation. Other states, such as Texas, have presumed speed limit laws where if you're driving 60 in a 55 (assuming this is one the highways that it's allowed) and you're doing so safely, it would not be a violation.

    From e-how.com...
    How to Avoid a Speeding Ticket
    It goes without saying that, to avoid a traffic ticket, one should not have been drinking, have taken a drug that impedes reflexes and judgment, or be conspicuously passing everybody on the highway in a bright-red convertible or in a vehicle with a missing tail light. In addition, knowing your state's speed-limit law can help prevent your being pulled over.



    Steps:
    1. Learn the three types of speed limits ' absolute, presumed and basic. An absolute speed limit means what it says: If you drive a mile over the posted limit, you are speeding. Under presumed speed limit law, you can legally exceed the posted limit as long as you drive safely. The basic speed limit allows you to drive only as fast as conditions allow, no matter what limit is posted.

    2. Note that all states have a basic speed limit and, using this law, usually give out tickets following an accident (even if driving under the posted limit).

    3. Study your state's laws. For example, speed limits in California, Arizona, Colorado and Connecticut are absolute on highways and presumed almost everywhere else; in states such as Pennsylvania, Florida, Alaska, Hawaii and Kansas, all are absolute; and in Texas and Rhode Island, almost all are presumed.

    4. Drive "safely and prudently" in states and on streets with presumed speed limits.

    5. Drive at or below the posted limit on interstates and state highways to avoid a speeding ticket in most states and when you don't know the law.
  4. #4
    CdwJava is offline Senior Member
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    CVC 22350: No person shall drive a vehicle upon a highway at a speed greater than is reasonable or prudent having due regard for weather, visibility, the traffic on, and the surface and width of, the highway, and in no event at a speed which endangers the safety of persons or property.

    and

    CVC 22351(b): (b) The speed of any vehicle upon a highway in excess of the prima facie speed limits in Section 22352 or established as authorized in this code is prima facie unlawful unless the defendant establishes by competent evidence that the speed in excess of said limits did not constitute a violation of the basic speed law at the time, place and under the conditions then existing.

    Thus, you can be seen as in violation of the basic speed law (aka Unsafe Speed). To prove otherwise will take a heck of a lot of work, and would require you to obtain some special knowledge of the roadway, engineering, and speed survey.



    - Carl
    A Nor Cal Cop Sergeant

    "Make mine a double mocha ...
    And a croissant!"

    Seek justice,
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    Walk humbly with your God

    -- Courageous, by Casting Crowns ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkM-gDcmJeM
  5. #5
    UnwillingTarget Guest
    Where I live (PA), and at least locally where I'm at, the police won't stop you unless you're like 11 MPH or more over the limit. This is their "unofficial" standing on it. I think, though, that the official rule here in the state of PA is that you can be cited for 1 MPH over, but I don't think I know of anyone who has been personally. I've never heard of such a thing. The person I know who has been stopped the most is this guy I used to be friends with a while back, but he drove like a nutcase. He once told me he was stopped for doing only 3 over the limit, but I found out that the officer had reduced it to that after actually stopping him for passing on a double-yellow line. Like I said... bad driver!

    Anyway, on the PA turnpike, everyone's doing at least 70 really, and the posted limit is 55 around my area and such, and the state police don't seem to pull anyone over unless they're at 80 or close. Obviously, a lot of this is at the officer's discretion I suppose, though.
  6. #6
    JETX is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptlmejo
    Other states, such as Texas, have presumed speed limit laws where if you're driving 60 in a 55 (assuming this is one the highways that it's allowed) and you're doing so safely, it would not be a violation.
    And of course, that is NOT correct.

    The maximum speed laws in Texas are specific..... per the Texas Transportation Code:
    " 545.352. PRIMA FACIE SPEED LIMITS.
    (a) A speed in excess of the limits established by Subsection (b) or under another provision of this subchapter is prima facie evidence that the speed is not reasonable and prudent and that the speed is unlawful.
    (b) Unless a special hazard exists that requires a slower speed for compliance with Section 545.351(b), the following speeds are lawful:
    (1) 30 miles per hour in an urban district on a street other than an alley and 15 miles per hour in an alley;
    (2) 70 miles per hour in daytime and 65 miles per hour in nighttime if the vehicle is a passenger car, motorcycle, passenger car or light truck towing a trailer bearing a vessel, as defined by Section 31.003, Parks and Wildlife Code, that is less than 26 feet in length, passenger car or light truck towing a
    trailer or semitrailer used primarily to transport a motorcycle, or passenger car or light truck towing a trailer or semitrailer designed and used primarily to transport dogs or livestock, on a highway numbered by this state or the United States outside an urban district, including a farm-to-market or ranch-to-market road;
    (3) 60 miles per hour in daytime and 55 miles per hour in nighttime if the vehicle is a passenger car or motorcycle on a highway that is outside an urban district and not a highway numbered by this state or the United States;
    (4) 60 miles per hour outside an urban district if a speed limit for the vehicle is not otherwise specified by this section; or
    (5) outside an urban district: (A) 60 miles per hour if the vehicle is a school bus that has passed a commercial motor vehicle inspection under Section 548.201 and is on a highway numbered by the United States or this state, including a farm-to-market road;
    (B) 50 miles per hour if the vehicle is a school bus that:
    (i) has not passed a commercial motor vehicle inspection under Section 548.201; or
    (ii) is traveling on a highway not numbered by the United States or this state; or
    (C) 60 miles per hour in daytime and 55 miles per hour in nighttime if the vehicle is a truck, other than a light truck, or if the vehicle is a truck tractor, trailer, or semitrailer, or a vehicle towing a trailer other than a trailer
    described by Subdivision (2), semitrailer, another motor vehicle or towable recreational vehicle."

    Source: [url]http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/statutes/tn.toc.htm[/url]

    Simply, you drive above those 'lawful' speeds and you can be ticketed in Texas!!
  7. #7
    ptlmejo is offline Member
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    Correct, you would probably receive a citation...but one could argue it in court under a presumed limit statue that you were operating safely.

    [URL=http://www.mit.edu/~jfc/laws.html]http://www.mit.edu/~jfc/laws.html[/URL]
  8. #8
    JETX is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptlmejo
    Correct, you would probably receive a citation...but one could argue it in court under a presumed limit statue that you were operating safely.
    Don't you just love it when some 'legally-challenged' people go out and find some error-filled website that they think supports their claim... even when it is pointed out to them by providing EXACT statutes to contradict them???
    'Operating safely' has absolutely NOTHING to do with this.

    Do you understand the term 'prima facie'???
    adj. Latin for "at first look," or "on its face," referring to a lawsuit or criminal prosecution in which the evidence before trial is sufficient to prove the case unless there is substantial contradictory evidence presented at trial.

    Do you understand "A speed in excess of the limits established by Subsection (b) or under another provision of this subchapter is prima facie evidence that the speed is not reasonable and prudent and that the speed is unlawful."??

    Do you understand that your statement ("Other states, such as Texas, have presumed speed limit laws where if you're driving 60 in a 55 (assuming this is one the highways that it's allowed) and you're doing so safely, it would not be a violation.") is NOT correct??
    Last edited by JETX; 09-27-2004 at 06:42 AM.
  9. #9
    ptlmejo is offline Member
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    You obviously have nothing better to do with your time than argue.

    Point still remains, would you get a ticket? Probably. Would you be able to win it in court? Likely if you could prove you were operating safely.

    Texas was just my example...maybe an incorrect example. I see that law was recenly revised, so perhaps things have changed. However, the facts regarding what a presumed speed limit is haven't changed.
  10. #10
    CdwJava is offline Senior Member
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    Actually, PTL, in CA the "safe" argument - by itself - would not likely win. Unless combined with proof of an improper (unlawful) speed limit based upon the survey and exceptions, the prima facie limit of 25 was exceeded. Showing that it was otherwise safe would not generally be an exception in CA, and thus I would have to say that the result would be a guilty verdict.

    - Carl
    A Nor Cal Cop Sergeant

    "Make mine a double mocha ...
    And a croissant!"

    Seek justice,
    Love mercy,
    Walk humbly with your God

    -- Courageous, by Casting Crowns ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkM-gDcmJeM
  11. #11
    ptlmejo is offline Member
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    No argument here, Carl.

    The debate all of a sudden arose over presumed speed laws, which, CA is not one that has them.
  12. #12
    JETX is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptlmejo
    The debate all of a sudden arose over presumed speed laws, which, CA is not one that has them.
    Yep. It 'suddenly arose' because of a statement that YOU made. Let me refresh you with the following from YOUR post:
    "Other states, such as Texas, have presumed speed limit laws".

    And of course, as shown by the provided Texas statute, your statement was NOT correct.

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