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notme2

Junior Member
What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? This happened in Scottsdale Arizona



I got a radar ticket doing 25 in a 15 school zone a couple of things.

1. I had insurance but no card with me he sighted me for no insurance with an accident. There was no accident can I use that to my advantage.


2. I was going 25 in a 30 mile an hour but at the corner there was sign that tempory sign that said 15MPH I didn't see it this was about 100 feet from the officer who was hiding behind a chain link fence

3. There were no children present at the time as it it was 20 minutes before school let out.

4. how long does a radar gun have to be on a vehicle before it registers as I was slowing down as I came to the corner as I had to make a left hand turn.

5. 20 minutes later when I went back to count the distant to the sign from the corner the cop was on, the cop was on the phone as people were speeding towards the corner where he was and children where out should that be brought up in some fashion to show that he wasn't concerned when he should have been?

6. Since he was on city time can those phone records be subpoenaed ?
 


I_Got_Banned

Senior Member
1. What code section were you cited for with regards to your insurance?

2. So had you passed the temporary sign or were you approaching it?

3. What code section were you cited for with regards to your speed?

4. Seconds... If that long!

5. You can bring it up but how does that prove that you were not driving too fast or driving without proof of insurance?

6. You can subpoena anything you want but again, and assuming they do provide you with phone records, how does that prove your innocence?
 

notme2

Junior Member
Thanks for your quick response sorry I didn't get back to you sooner been working long days.


1. What code section were you cited for with regards to your insurance?

28-4036.2

A person who is subject to the financial responsibility requirements of this article and who operates or causes to be operated a vehicle in this state without meeting the financial responsibility requirements of this article is guilty of:

A class 1 misdemeanor if the vehicle is involved in an accident in this state.
2. So had you passed the temporary sign or were you approaching it?

I was clocked at 25 but he didn't say where, The speed limit is normally 30 I was going slow because I drive for a living and I am careful I was in a school area. I was slowing down anyways because I was making a left at the intersection where the kids cross

3. What code section were you cited for with regards to your speed?

28-9797F. A vehicle shall not proceed at a speed of more than fifteen miles per hour between the portable signs placed on the highway indicating that there shall be no passing, that school is in session and that the driver shall stop when children are in the crosswalk.
4. Seconds... If that long!

5. You can bring it up but how does that prove that you were not driving too fast or driving without proof of insurance?

No it doesn't prove anything, but what proof does he have that I was? My point would be to show a sign doubt of his importance of pulling people over when there is no kids around and yet when he should be watching out for speeders with children present he is yakking away on the phone..

I was planning on subpoena all the tickets he wrote in the last 30 days and what time at that spot if he is nailing more people when school is in session when there are no kids out it shows a pattern that it easier to get speeders when no kids are around then when there is because people are more cautious.

I know sounds weird but in my mind it makes sense.

6. You can subpoena anything you want but again, and assuming they do provide you with phone records, how does that prove your innocence?

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

OK how do I prove my innocence when I honestly don't know if I am guilty?

I understand the degree for the state in a civil case to prove my guilt
is not as strong as it has to be in a criminal case.

What would you suggest?

I mean can I use "well your honor there was no accident although I was sited for it if he made a mistake how do I know that he didn't make a mistake with my speed?

Or Am I watching to many lawyer shows?
__________________
 

I_Got_Banned

Senior Member
28-4036.2

A person who is subject to the financial responsibility requirements of this article and who operates or causes to be operated a vehicle in this state without meeting the financial responsibility requirements of this article is guilty of:

A class 1 misdemeanor if the vehicle is involved in an accident in this state.
You know you can quote statutes out of context, and although it might slip by on here and might make your argument “there was no accident so I'm home free” sound legally viable, chances are that little trick will not work in court... :rolleyes:

Here is what 28-4036 says:
28-4036. Violation; classification
A person who is subject to the financial responsibility requirements of this article and who operates or causes to be operated a vehicle in this state without meeting the financial responsibility requirements of this article is guilty of:
1. A class 3 misdemeanor.
2.A class 1 misdemeanor if the vehicle is involved in an accident in this state.​

To me that says that if no accident was involved, then subsection “1” would apply. Now, whether your showing valid proof that you were insured at the time you were cited will help you or not, I don't know... That would be up to the judge.

I was clocked at 25 but he didn't say where
Your citation should show the “location” of the infraction... That should give you an idea as to whether you were in the reduced speed zone or not when he clocked you.

No it doesn't prove anything
Exactly...

but what proof does he have that I was?
Uhm... The reading he got from his RADAR gun!!!

My point would be to show a sign doubt of his importance of pulling people over when there is no kids around and yet when he should be watching out for speeders with children present he is yakking away on the phone..
Regardless of what he was doing and when, unless you can somehow prove he was yakking (sic) on the phone while you committed the alleged violation then you're not proving much in the way of your non-guilt!

I was planning on subpoena all the tickets he wrote in the last 30 days and what time at that spot if he is nailing more people when school is in session when there are no kids out it shows a pattern that it easier to get speeders when no kids are around then when there is because people are more cautious.
Again... When, where, why, or how he cited other people proves nothing as far as your violation is concerned. You could subpoena his medical records, his credit report and copies of his birth and/or marriage (if he is married).... Assuming you get any of those documents, none of them would even begin to give you a glimmer of hope that his measurement was invalid or incorrect, and therefore, you would have wasted your time, the court's time and yet you'd still be found guilty!

I know sounds weird but in my mind it makes sense.
You're more than welcome to give it your best shot... Just keep in mind that unless you somehow refute his testimony that you were speeding, then more likely than not, you're going to lose!

OK how do I prove my innocence when I honestly don't know if I am guilty?
….
What would you suggest?
I've answered that in this post... He testifies that he measured your speed at 25mph in a 15 mph zone.... Present the court with proof that you were driving at below the 15mph limit.... Other than that, you are grasping at straws and spinning your wheels....

I understand the degree for the state in a civil case to prove my guilt
is not as strong as it has to be in a criminal case.
Honestly, I don't know if AZ handles traffic infractions as civil matters (preponderance of the evidence) or as criminal matters (beyond a reasonable doubt). In any case, the only way I can see you prevailing here is by you attacking his testimony and his evidence rather than arguing irrelevant side issues like the validity of other citations, his attentiveness 20 minutes AFTER he cited you.... etc.

I mean can I use "well your honor there was no accident although I was sited for it if he made a mistake how do I know that he didn't make a mistake with my speed?
Read the top of this post and you'll see why the “there was no accident” argument doesn't hold any water..

Oh, and by the way, I couldn't find an ARS 9797F, (the AZ State Legislature website – > here: http://www.azleg.state.az.us/ArizonaRevisedStatutes.asp?Title=28 only lists codes up to 28-9402) and without reading it for myself..... Well, I would rather not comment on that part.

Good luck!
 

notme2

Junior Member
Read the top of this post and you'll see why the “there was no accident” argument doesn't hold any water..

Oh, and by the way, I couldn't find an ARS 9797F, (the AZ State Legislature website – > here: http://www.azleg.state.az.us/ArizonaRevisedStatutes.asp?Title=28 only lists codes up to 28-9402) and without reading it for myself..... Well, I would rather not comment on that part.

Well you will see the same thing as I posted it, as I cut and pasted the whole the whole section pertaining to that.
 

notme2

Junior Member
You know you can quote statutes out of context, and although it might slip by on here and might make your argument “there was no accident so I'm home free” sound legally viable, chances are that little trick will not work in court...
Ok whats taken out of context

The ticket say's

"taxi-no proof of insurance in accident"

I was not in accident


http://www.azleg.state.az.us/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/ars/28/00797.htm&Title=28&DocType=ARS

Here is the link you can scroll down to "F"
 

I_Got_Banned

Senior Member
Ok whats taken out of context

The ticket say's

"taxi-no proof of insurance in accident"

I was not in accident
What's taken out of context is that that way you posted the statute ( and excluded subsection "1") suggested that it is only applicable when involved in an accident. You can argue that the ticket says "in accident" but the statute number that as it is written on your citation covers both circumstances.

Was this a hand written citation or one that is printed from a handheld machine?

See the first time you posted it, the number you posted was 28-9797F... When in fact it is 28-0797F...

Now that I see it, it seems simple enough... If temporary signs are posted that means that school is in session and that the speed limit in that zone is 15mph...

So again, it brings us back to the point I previously made that you need to find out whether the violation occurred inside the 15mph zone or before you entered it. My guess is that the officer will, testify that you were inside the 15mph zone (otherwise why would he have cited you if you were outside of that zone?). So unless you can somehow prove that you had not entered the 15 mph zone when he clocked you, then its the officer's word against yours.

Check the location of the violation as it is shown on the citation.... That should be a clue as to where you were.
 
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notme2

Junior Member
I won!!!

I went and fought the ticket. Since there was also a citation for no insurance in accident which was incorrect, it got moved to a criminal court and then dismissed when I plead not guilty. Even though no proof of insurance was dismissed it remained in Criminal court. good for me judge must not have been up on traffic law.

Went to court Wednesday I pleaded my case. Stating what I posted in my previous post above more or less. After we were done the judge said that she had to review the testimony and that I would get the ruling in the mail.
Got it Friday, dismissed the judge said after reviewing the testimony the police officer did not state that he calibrated the radar gun before or after the stop!!

This was not brought up by either of us as everyone does right?

I think see was looking for a reason to dismiss it, as I have never heard of a judge ruling on something that was not brought up by eiother party in court. Is this not out of the norm?
 

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