Using another's product to finish mine

[BradA]

If I'm in the process of starting my own fly rod business in Idaho and online, do I need permission from the respective companies to use their materials on my final products before I begin selling?

I make fly rods and wood fishing nets and want to begin selling them. Some of the materials I use to finish my products are not mine, I did not make them. For example, the metal components on my fly rods and the net material on my wood fishing nets.

 

[quincy]

If I'm in the process of starting my own fly rod business in Idaho and online, do I need permission from the respective companies to use their materials on my final products before I begin selling?

I make fly rods and wood fishing nets and want to begin selling them. Some of the materials I use to finish my products are not mine, I did not make them. For example, the metal components on my fly rods and the net material on my wood fishing nets.

Whether you need permission from the various companies to use their materials in your final products depends on what materials you are using and from which companies. If the materials you wish to use are patent-protected, for example, you will need permission.

You will also need to be careful how you advertise your products when marketing them for sale. You cannot use the trademarks (names, logos, slogans, etc) of the other companies to promote your products (although you can generally mention in your advertising the parts used in the creation of your products). You need to avoid having consumers confused into thinking your products have any connection to, or have been sponsored or endorsed by, the companies whose material you are using to create your products.

If you are competing with these companies in the marketplace (e.g., they make fly rods, wood fishing nets), you could find problems with unfair competition claims under either Idaho state laws or federal laws (Lanham Act Section 43(b)).

As a most general rule, you can take what products you have legally purchased and resell them, under what is known as the "first sale doctrine." Altering or modifying these products can, however, be legally problematic. I recommend you have your fly rod and wood fishing net products personally reviewed by an IP attorney in your area prior to offering them for sale.

Good luck.

 

[LdiJ]

If I'm in the process of starting my own fly rod business in Idaho and online, do I need permission from the respective companies to use their materials on my final products before I begin selling?

I make fly rods and wood fishing nets and want to begin selling them. Some of the materials I use to finish my products are not mine, I did not make them. For example, the metal components on my fly rods and the net material on my wood fishing nets.

Net material if sold as material only is almost guaranteed to be safe to use. Just as people who purchase fabrics can use them any way they like and sell finished clothing, other fabrics may be used in the same way. Net material is almost guaranteed to be used by multiple manufacturers of fishing nets...and multiple manufacturers of products totally unrelated to fishing.

Metal parts, again, if sold in bulk as components, and not as replacement parts for existing products, again, are generally safe. That would be in the same manner that nails, screws, and other types of hardware are sold and used as parts of other products sold.

For example, if you are able to purchase 100 or 1000 pieces of a particular component, then that is tacit permission to use that component how you see fit and sell products containing that component. If you cannot purchase the component in bulk that would be an indication that it could be proprietary and you would need permission. However, at the same time its unlikely that a competitor produces that component themselves, and therefore if you are able to find and purchase that component from the original manufacturer, again, you are home free.

Therefore, when you are looking for sources for components, you need to be looking for the actual manufacturers (or the distributors for those manufacturer's) rather than looking at your competition as a source.

If you can buy it in a hardware store, and it does not have a logo stamped on it, then you are also home free even if you only purchase one at a time.

The reality of things is that very few manufacturers produce all of their own components and those components that are proprietary are generally mechanical to one extent or another.

 

[quincy]

Net material if sold as material only is almost guaranteed to be safe to use. Just as people who purchase fabrics can use them any way they like and sell finished clothing, other fabrics may be used in the same way. Net material is almost guaranteed to be used by multiple manufacturers of fishing nets...and multiple manufacturers of products totally unrelated to fishing.

Metal parts, again, if sold in bulk as components, and not as replacement parts for existing products, again, are generally safe. That would be in the same manner that nails, screws, and other types of hardware are sold and used as parts of other products sold.

For example, if you are able to purchase 100 or 1000 pieces of a particular component, then that is tacit permission to use that component how you see fit and sell products containing that component. If you cannot purchase the component in bulk that would be an indication that it could be proprietary and you would need permission. However, at the same time its unlikely that a competitor produces that component themselves, and therefore if you are able to find and purchase that component from the original manufacturer, again, you are home free.

Therefore, when you are looking for sources for components, you need to be looking for the actual manufacturers (or the distributors for those manufacturer's) rather than looking at your competition as a source.

If you can buy it in a hardware store, and it does not have a logo stamped on it, then you are also home free even if you only purchase one at a time.

The reality of things is that very few manufacturers produce all of their own components and those components that are proprietary are generally mechanical to one extent or another.

BradA, I would be very wary of following any advice on this forum that says "you are home free," especially when the person offering the advice does not have any access to the specific materials being used or all of the facts.

 

[LdiJ]

BradA, I would be very wary of following any advice on this forum that says "you are home free," especially when the person offering the advice does not have any access to the specific materials being used or all of the facts.

Seriously? What experience do you have in dealing with manufacturing or distribution of components and how they are used? I was CFO for a company for 15 years and everything you said was basically wrong.

I am really disappointed in you. You had no business weighing in on this particular issue at all, because you know squat about it...and then when you were corrected, you let you ego get in the way of reality.

 

[quincy]

Seriously? What experience do you have in dealing with manufacturing or distribution of components and how they are used? I was CFO for a company for 15 years and everything you said was basically wrong.

I am really disappointed in you. You had no business weighing in on this particular issue at all, because you know squat about it...and then when you were corrected, you let you ego get in the way of reality.

Yes, seriously. Your advice was reckless and I am surprised you are trying to claim you know anything about the laws involved here, LdiJ.

Tell me how you support "people who purchase fabric can use them any way they like."

Tell me how you support "if you can buy it at a hardware store, then you are home free."

Case law to support any of what you said, please.

You are often humored on this site when you spout things without being able to legally support what you say (generally because there is no legal support for it). But, unless you can show me exactly how what I wrote was wrong and how what you wrote is right, it might be time for you to back off.

 

[LdiJ]

Yes, seriously. Your advice was reckless and I am surprised you are trying to claim you know anything about the laws involved here, LdiJ.

Tell me how you support "people who purchase fabric can use them any way they like."

Tell me how you support "if you can buy it at a hardware store, then you are home free."

Case law to support any of what you said, please.

You are often humored on this site when you spout things without being able to legally support what you say (generally because there is no legal support for it). But, unless you can show me exactly how what I wrote was wrong and how what you wrote is right, it might be time for you to back off.

Wow...

You are spouting off on a subject that you are clearly ignorant about...You ask me to cite case law on something that is so basic that case law wouldn't even address it...

Please feel free to cite case law that backs up YOUR position...seriously...please do. I am not going to bother because your position is clearly ignorant. I would love to see you actually find a case, in any state in this country that supports your position that someone needs permission to sell a product that uses generic hardware...or fabric...seriously?

I clearly outlined the difference between things that might be proprietary and things that would be generic and how to tell the difference.

You state that I am often "humored" here? I state that you sometimes make a fool of yourself here...and this one is about as classic as it gets.

 

[quincy]

Wow...

You are spouting off on a subject that you are clearly ignorant about...You ask me to cite case law on something that is so basic that case law wouldn't even address it...

Please feel free to cite case law that backs up YOUR position...seriously...please do. I am not going to bother because your position is clearly ignorant. I would love to see you actually find a case, in any state in this country that supports your position that someone needs permission to sell a product that uses generic hardware...or fabric...seriously?

I clearly outlined the difference between things that might be proprietary and things that would be generic and how to tell the difference.

You state that I am often "humored" here? I state that you sometimes make a fool of yourself here...and this one is about as classic as it gets.

No case law or anything to support what you said except for your "I said so," huh, LdiJ?

Surprise.

You are saying that we are supposed to accept your word that all fabrics can be used for whatever reason the purchaser wants? But this is legally incorrect, LdiJ. This is wrong. Disney, the MLB, the NCAA, United Media, Sanrio and even the US Marines would beg to differ with you. In fact, they have all filed suit against those who believed exactly as you do. Trademark laws, copyright laws, and even patent laws would beg to differ with you.

Look up the case law on your own time.

Now, please tell me what it was that I wrote that was wrong or legally incorrect. Tell me what I wrote that was "ignorant." Can you at least do that?

I am sorry, LdiJ, but this site is not designed to get people in trouble with the law because the advisor cannot take the time to do even a little bit of legal research or realize when there are not enough facts available for a definitive answer. You saying that BradA was "home free" if he followed what you advised was reckless at best.


A REALLY late edit to add the following links (adding them now because I thought either BradA would return to his thread or LdiJ might be back to support any of what she said, but neither have and I don't think this thread needs a revival at this point):

"divgradcurl" (a California patent attorney who used to post with some frequency to this site) posted to this thread and it relates nicely to the issues that concern Brad: https://forum.freeadvice.com/patents-104/velcro-my-idea-patent-help-231705.html

From a retailer who sells collegiate fabric, sold for personal use only (commercial uses of the fabric are prohibited under trademark law): https://www.fabric.com/buy/et-401/collegiate-cotton-broadcloth-university-of-nebraska-bandana-red

One final note: There are over 792 patents listed under "fishing nets" and 79 under "fly rods" and 201 under "designed fabric" and 4186 under "metal screws." From a fishing supply company website: "All custom cast nets come with a patented designed head ..."

 

[justalayman]

I'm posting only so it will pop up for me to continue reading the saga of how ldij gets her ass handed to her by Quincy.


Ldij; never rely on "tacit" permission to be legally dependable permission. Never rely on anything that is "almost guaranteed" and never rely on anything that is "generally safe".

While there is a truth in what you say in some circumstances, whether it applies to the op's situation or not cannot be determined without knowing a lot more than what has been presented here. It's not whether somebody has dealt with manufacturing products but knowing the laws behind usage rights and whether specific permission is required for the specific situation. I think Quincy has you beat hands down there. A lot of ceo's, coo's, cfo's and other alphabet soup officers do things that are improper because they don't know the laws and don't bother to ask those with the training that can tell them.


One huge point you never mentioned is; where are the materials being purchased from or more accurately, at what level of distribution after the manufacturer are the materials being obtained? That one point alone can make the difference between; you can do almost anything with the product and you can only do what the manufacturer or seller says you can do with the product. You inferred it with your "hardware store" statement but then you went and muddied that up with stating as long as there is no "logo" stamped on it you are (not even close but actually) home free. Do you really believe that simply because there is no logo on a product you can use it anyway you would like? Really? If so, you would be wrong.


But anyway, carry on. Its good entertainment on a Saturday night.