2000 return

[commesso]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)florida
for the year 2000, the irs filed for me.
in 2005, they were going to garnish my wages, for money they calculated i owed from 2000. i did everything they said and entered into a payment plan with them. i made a couple of payments. it was also suggested at that time that i should file a sfr.
they have kept all my returns, rebates since 2005.
i am now ready to fix this, and have been researching how.
is there a way to do this that i can get back all the money they have kept? is there a way to get the refund i would have gotten for 2000?
my entire working life i would have gotten refunds. my income has always been low. 2000 was my best year.
at the present i am laid off and my husband receives ssi.
i have considered sfr, offer in compromise,abatement ,penalty,refund
could you advise on the best way for me to fix this?

[LdiJ]

Originally Posted by commesso

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)florida
for the year 2000, the irs filed for me.
in 2005, they were going to garnish my wages, for money they calculated i owed from 2000. i did everything they said and entered into a payment plan with them. i made a couple of payments. it was also suggested at that time that i should file a sfr.
they have kept all my returns, rebates since 2005.
i am now ready to fix this, and have been researching how.
is there a way to do this that i can get back all the money they have kept? is there a way to get the refund i would have gotten for 2000?
my entire working life i would have gotten refunds. my income has always been low. 2000 was my best year.
at the present i am laid off and my husband receives ssi.
i have considered sfr, offer in compromise,abatement ,penalty,refund
could you advise on the best way for me to fix this?

If you didn't owe the amount of tax that they stated you owed, why didn't you file a return for 2000 to straighten it out?

You would not be able to collect any refund that might have been due to you for 2000, but you might get the IRS to accept a tax return showing the correct figures, and therefore reduce or eliminate your liability, and perhaps get back some of the tax that you have more recently paid in for 2000.

[tranquility]

See a tax professional. This is such a convoluted situation, not only is it impossible to tell the timelines involved, but also I be the OP can't tell us. It would take someone knowledgable in the law to review the documentation and find out what options are or are not available. In the end, I don't think the IRS will refund anything collected unless the OP goes to the Court of Claims and sues for a refund.

[davew128]

Originally Posted by tranquility

In the end, I don't think the IRS will refund anything collected unless the OP goes to the Court of Claims and sues for a refund.

I disagree. If the tax liability gets restated because of an accepted amended return, the IRS WILL refund any money garnished/collected within the last two years prior to the amended return. It may take a couple of phone calls/letters but it will happen. I speak from experience on the matter.

[tranquility]

The tax was already assessed over three years ago (garnishment in 2005), I'm not sure the IRS can refund the money even if they wanted to. Can one amend a substituted return past the SOL?

Are you sure the facts are the same?

[irsos]

Originally Posted by tranquility

The tax was already assessed over three years ago (garnishment in 2005), I'm not sure the IRS can refund the money even if they wanted to. Can one amend a substituted return past the SOL?

Are you sure the facts are the same?

A return filed now would be considered the original return - not an amended return. What the IRS filed is an SFR - or Substitute for Return. Any refunds or subsequent payments made in the last two years will be refunded if approporiate. The 2000 refund, if there is one, as well as any older than two years old are lost.

[davew128]

Originally Posted by tranquility

The tax was already assessed over three years ago (garnishment in 2005), I'm not sure the IRS can refund the money even if they wanted to. Can one amend a substituted return past the SOL?

One can always amend a return for a prior year. Claiming a refund is something else entirely.

Are you sure the facts are the same?

Close enough. As Irsos noted, the statute of limitations for claiming a refund is not three years from the due date of the return, it is the later of three years from the due date of the return, or two years from the time the tax was paid. Any payments/garnishments made with two years prior to the late return being filed will be refunded as the late return filing constitutes a claim for refund.

This happens quite often in the case of people who don't file returns, and any assessed tax by the IRS is based on an SFR that doesn't take into account things like filing status other than single, dependents, capital gain not equalling gross proceeds, and itemized deductions not reported automatically to the IRS.

I've also done this for a 10 year old return I amended to carry back an NOL that had never been used where the original return had a large balance due and the social security payments were being garnished at 100%. That actually had to go to appeals to get the garnishments for the last two years back because the people at the service center ignored the second part of the refund statute (and which I quoted and highlighted on the 1040X).

[tranquility]

I have great respect for irsos' opinion on collection matters and will defer to him on this as well. I just would like some clarification on the process for my own edification. First, I recognize the person may timely file a claim for refund within two years from the time the tax is paid per IRC 6511.

However, an "amended" return should not be filed, but an original (as irsos says) or a claim on for 843 per Treas. Reg. 301.6402-3. I am uncertain as to if a mere return is enough as it seems additional information is required for the IRS to even consider the refund.

The assessment from the substituted return now has a greater burden on the taxpayer as he now has the burden ot establishing the amount is inappropriate. Tax court chance is long since past, court of claims is the option I see, or the bevolence of the IRS. If the IRS denies the claim of the taxpayer on this "original" return, the taxpayer will have to pay the full amount before being able to sue for the refund. Even then, if the IRS postion is "reasonable" I'm not sure he can win.

So, to my question, "Can one amend a substituted return past the SOL?", the answer is not really. An original need be filed (maybe long with form 843.) And, I agree I was wrong when I wondered if the IRS even had the power to refund. They do, up to the time limits of the later of the 3 year SOL on the due date of the return or 2 years of the payment of the taxes.

With all that, my question. Does the IRS routinely accept these very late "originals" or do they tend to be pains about them?

Info edit:
I accept dave128s posts as well and don't mean to imply I don't or didn't. (Although an amendment due to an NOL would be very acceptable as it is information which was not in the taxpayers knowledge at the time of the due date of the original return.

[irsos]

Originally Posted by tranquility

I have great respect for irsos' opinion on collection matters and will defer to him on this as well. I just would like some clarification on the process for my own edification. First, I recognize the person may timely file a claim for refund within two years from the time the tax is paid per IRC 6511.

However, an "amended" return should not be filed, but an original (as irsos says) or a claim on for 843 per Treas. Reg. 301.6402-3. I am uncertain as to if a mere return is enough as it seems additional information is required for the IRS to even consider the refund.

The assessment from the substituted return now has a greater burden on the taxpayer as he now has the burden ot establishing the amount is inappropriate. Tax court chance is long since past, court of claims is the option I see, or the bevolence of the IRS. If the IRS denies the claim of the taxpayer on this "original" return, the taxpayer will have to pay the full amount before being able to sue for the refund. Even then, if the IRS postion is "reasonable" I'm not sure he can win.

So, to my question, "Can one amend a substituted return past the SOL?", the answer is not really. An original need be filed (maybe long with form 843.) And, I agree I was wrong when I wondered if the IRS even had the power to refund. They do, up to the time limits of the later of the 3 year SOL on the due date of the return or 2 years of the payment of the taxes.

With all that, my question. Does the IRS routinely accept these very late "originals" or do they tend to be pains about them?

Info edit:
I accept dave128s posts as well and don't mean to imply I don't or didn't. (Although an amendment due to an NOL would be very acceptable as it is information which was not in the taxpayers knowledge at the time of the due date of the original return.

The IRS routinely accepts old returns in protest of an SFR. No 843 is needed and in fact will confuse things.

[davew128]

Originally Posted by tranquility

So, to my question, "Can one amend a substituted return past the SOL?", the answer is not really. An original need be filed (maybe long with form 843.)

An 843 shouldn't be used except in instances example, you pay tax on an issue in dispute such as being considered a responsible person for unpaid payroll tax, you disagree, and the only legal venue (whether by expiration of time to file in tax court or by jurisdiction for the type of tax) for the matter is US District Court where you have to pay the tax and have a claim for refund denied before you can sue for a refund. I suspect that the spate of court cases that ultimately led to the refund of the long-distance telephone tax were originally on refund claims filed on Form 843.

With all that, my question. Does the IRS routinely accept these very late "originals" or do they tend to be pains about them?

In my experience, they accept them but the ones I have encountered are not terribly controversial in terms of content. Typically you're dealing with a knucklehead with a simple return who for whatever reason simply didn't fulfull his filing requirement.