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  1. #1
    t0ddie is offline Junior Member
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    Public land, Curfew and fees.

    What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)?
    Minnesota

    I believe my state has policies/ordinances that are unlawful.

    1) curfews (for both minors AND adults) are enacted in certain areas.
    2) there are fees for using PUBLIC land.

    from what I have researched there are three main types of curfew laws.

    Juvenile Curfew Laws

    Juvenile curfew laws are typically enacted at the state and local level, and prohibit people of a certain age (usually under 18) from being in public or in a business establishment during certain hours (such as between 11:00 p.m. and 6:00 a.m.). Goals behind these laws are frequently cited as maintenance of social order, and prevention of juvenile crime.

    Emergency Curfew Laws

    Emergency curfews are usually temporary orders that are put in place -- by federal, state, or local government -- in response to a particular crisis, like a natural disaster or ongoing civil disturbance. A few examples of emergency curfews:

    * In August 2008, the city of New Orleans instituted an emergency "dusk to dawn" curfew as Hurricane Gustav approached the Gulf Coast.

    * In September 2008, Houston instituted a midnight-to-6:00a.m. curfew as the city sought to clean up debris and repair power outages due to Hurricane Ike.

    * In April 1992, authorities in Los Angeles imposed a dusk-to-dawn curfew and deployed the National Guard to help quell city-wide civil disturbances, after the acquittal of LAPD officers involved in the beating of Rodney King.

    A city's laws may give the mayor the express power to take certain curfew-related actions in response to a local emergency. For example, the New York City Administrative Code authorizes the mayor of New York City to order curfews "including, but not limited to, the prohibition of or restrictions on pedestrian and vehicular movement, standing and parking, except for the provision of designated essential services such as fire, police and hospital services including the transportation of patients thereto, utility emergency repairs and emergency calls by physicians."

    Business Curfews

    Some cities have enacted business curfew laws that require businesses in densely-populated and/or high-crime areas to close during late-night hours, i.e. from 11:00 p.m. to 5:00 a.m. Typically, businesses curfews do not apply to late-night pharmacies and bars, but are applicable to restaurants, liquor stores, and other establishments where people may gather.

    Like juvenile curfew laws, often a city's business curfew law will remain on the books but be enforced only periodically, usually as a law enforcement response to an increased incidence of local crime and violence.

    [url=http://public.findlaw.com/civil-rights/curfew-laws/what-are-curfew-laws.html]What are Curfew Laws? - Civil Rights[/url]
    But what about certain areas? nothing is mentioned about parks.
    Then I read this.

    We found an incredible curfew article that specifically points out that curfews are only constitutional if they allow people to exercise their First Amendment rights at any time. The courts routinely strike down city curfews but cities usually respond by amending them with a FIRST AMENDMENT EXCEPTION to make them constitutional.

    For example, about 18 days after the 9th Circuit Court of the United States, which is one level below the Supreme Court, struck down the San Diego curfew, the San Diego Mayor revised it to include the First Amendment exception. About two weeks after the revision, we started to protest the law. Because we knew our rights, no one was arrested at any of the protests.

    Please read the article so that you completely understand that you have the right to be out past curfew IF you exercise your First Amendment rights. You do not need to attend a political rally, you only need to express a political opinion. If you don’t have one of our stickers, which have a political message, then write a political message on one of your T-shirts and use that as your constitutional shield.

    [url=http://libertarianrock.com/1998/11/curfews-are-constitutional-due-to-1st-amendment-exception/]Curfews are constitutional due to 1st Amendment exception : Libertarian Rock[/url]
    My understanding of this:
    It is against your first amendment right to impose a curfew (the right to assemble is valid at any hour) so as long as you are expressing an opinion (which could be anything as simple as just wearing a t-shirt) then you cant be prosecuted for curfew violation however you still could be arrested because lets be honest here, cops dont know the law. they simply enforce whatever they are told to do. arrest them all, let the judge sort them out right?

    now before anyone replies...
    I AM AWARE that the police can arrest you for anything or nothing at all, and you will have to defend yourself in court later. so dont reply with stupid comments and please try to stay on topic.

    also i know the constitution is SUPPOSED to be the highest law in the land but that does not stop the powers in control from violating it anyway and then having to waste your time money energy and resources fighting it.

    In my pursuit of happiness, life and liberty... and trying to live the american dream, I have found something I really enjoy. I have been playing frisbee golf.

    Two problems.

    1) My friends who I play with work during the day and we only have time to play at night and the public parks all have signs that say they close at 10:00 p.m. (imposing a curfew on public land which is not a business, emergency or age related)

    2) The state has seen frisbee golf as a new form of revenue. they force people to pay between $3-5 to play a round in a public park which the course was already established, and that I already pay taxes for. (turning the right to gather in a public place that was free into a privilege you must now pay for)

    The point of this thread is asking if anyone knows of anything in the state/federal constitution that specifically gives them the legal right to impose curfews and charge fees on public land, because I cannot find any. and if they are in violation of the law, then what would be the best possible legal recourse when they arrest/fine me and violate my rights to assemble?
    Last edited by t0ddie; 05-11-2010 at 08:01 AM.
  2. #2
    Stevef is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by t0ddie View Post
    The point of this thread is asking if anyone knows of anything in the state/federal constitution that specifically gives them the legal right to impose curfews and charge fees on public land, because I cannot find any. and if they are in violation of the law, then what would be the best possible legal recourse when they arrest/fine me and violate my rights to assemble?
    The US Constitution, Amendment X:
    "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people"

    So since power to impose a curfew is not granted to the United States by the constitution, that power is reserved to the states.
  3. #3
    t0ddie is offline Junior Member
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    but this is not the issue at hand.
    if a law does not fall under the constitution then your explanation applies

    the state can make laws BUT state law cannot trump federal law.
    i.e. if murder is illegal by federal law, it cannot be made legal by the states.

    please explain how state law can void your constitutional first amendment rights,
    OR explain how this is not a violation of my first amendment rights.
    Last edited by t0ddie; 05-11-2010 at 08:53 AM.
  4. #4
    Stevef is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by t0ddie View Post
    but this is not the issue at hand.
    if a law does not fall under the constitution then your explanation applies

    the state can make laws BUT state law cannot trump federal law.
    i.e. if murder is illegal by federal law, it cannot be made legal by the states.

    please explain how state law can void your constitutional first amendment rights,
    OR explain how this is not a violation of my first amendment rights.
    I'm not aware of any constitutional right to use a disc golf course after 10:00pm. Hence, that power is reserved to the states to control.
  5. #5
    Stevef is offline Senior Member
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    Taken to an extreme (which is one of my favorite ways to point out flaws in a theory), you could claim that the government has no right to ban you from Fort Knox while wearing a "Nuke the Gay Whales" T-shirt, because it would be a violation of your right of free speech.
  6. #6
    t0ddie is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stevef View Post
    I'm not aware of any constitutional right to use a disc golf course after 10:00pm. Hence, that power is reserved to the states to control.
    irrelevant.

    the right to play disk golf is not the question.

    you are not allowed in the park after 10:00 whether you are playing disk golf, or simply passing through.

    it is the right to assemble that is in question.


    Quote Originally Posted by Stevef View Post
    Taken to an extreme (which is one of my favorite ways to point out flaws in a theory), you could claim that the government has no right to ban you from Fort Knox while wearing a "Nuke the Gay Whales" T-shirt, because it would be a violation of your right of free speech.
    to point out your flaw, which i also enjoy but its not my favorite thing, fort knox is not public land, it is government land. I do believe there is a difference. you are allowed to protest in front of the building of course, but not in the secure vault itself...

    but i am not trying to enter a SECURE area... i am not trying to read the president a bedtime story after hours in his bedroom... lets not make this extreme when it does not have to be.

    perhaps if they were guarding gold bars in the park and it was not used for public recreation (fort knox has no gold anyways but thats another subject)
    THEN I could entertain your idea...

    also i have no theory... i am looking at the facts here.
    give me the law, not some theoretical analogy.

    i would like you to answer this if you can.

    please explain how state law can void your constitutional first amendment rights, (other than the obvious security reasons which are irrelevant because they do not apply)
    OR explain how this is not a violation of my first amendment rights.
  7. #7
    racer72 is offline Senior Member
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    please explain how state law can void your constitutional first amendment rights,
    There is no Constitutional right to use public lands at your leisure.
    If you feel my answer is rude, mean, snarky or in anyway not to your liking, I did my job. You don't need to tell me.

    No private messages, I do not reply to them.
  8. #8
    t0ddie is offline Junior Member
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    just so that there is no confusion,

    are you stating that there is no right to assemble on public land?
    the very first amendment says there is... so important they put it at #1

    please cite reference or some facts which i can research, and dont just make claims.
  9. #9
    Zigner is offline Senior Member
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    t0ddie t0ddie is online now
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    hello
    your message was rudely deleted by moderators before i could view it. they seem to have a habit of doing that even though no rules are being broken.

    [url=http://forum.freeadvice.com/us-supreme-court-constitution-25/public-land-curfew-fees-516037-new-post.html]Public land, Curfew and fees.[/url]

    if you would like to answer me here that would be fine.

    this forums is doing the same unethical things that its supposed to be fighting against.
    I posted a response and deleted it myself in order to report your nonsense thread. This is not the place for your rants...


    PS: Don't PM me any further.

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