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Jenny0147

Junior Member
RHODE ISLAND...
OK my mom & dad own the house free and clear as joint tenants,they both never want the house sold,nor any of us to buy out or force the others to pay,just simple leave to used by family..how can this be done ? LIVING TRUST?
also my mom can go and make legal her wishes with her half with dad being present yes ? PLEASE HELP !
 


anteater

Senior Member
RHODE ISLAND...
OK my mom & dad own the house free and clear as joint tenants,they both never want the house sold,nor any of us to buy out or force the others to pay,just simple leave to used by family..how can this be done ? LIVING TRUST?
I think that your parents have unrealistic expectations and are likely setting up a scenario for future conflict unless they also have a bundle of money that will be set aside for taxes, utilities, maintenance, etc.

That said, a revocable living trust could be used. But, since this is not a do-it-yourself project, I suggest that they consult with an estate planning attorney.


also my mom can go and make legal her wishes with her half with dad being present yes ? PLEASE HELP !
Go where to make her wishes clear?

This is confusing in light of your first sentence. Mom and Dad need to be acting together.

And it is not clear that Mom can do anything with "her half." Rhode Island recognizes both joint tenancy (with right of survivorship) and tenancy by the entirety. If it is a joint tenancy, Mom could convert it into a tenancy in common which would enable her to devise her interest in the property separately. I am not certain what hoops she would need to jump through in RI to do so. In some states, it is fairly easy to "break" the joint tenancy. In others, it is more complex.

If it is owned in tenancy by the entirety, then neither spouse can act separately. They must act together in matters concerning ownership of the property.
 
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Jenny0147

Junior Member
ty

sorry about not being more clear,very frustrated.ok from what i have learned and getting the deed & title,yes mom can sell,transfer etc..her half as she owns 50% no restrictions...so did I learn wrong that she can deed her half to me ? now when she dies Im 50% owner,this is what I read and was told ? and why $$ set aside for utilities ? they die I live here I pay all that..?? Not sure why this is so hard in this country,and what i meant was she is going to a lawyer to put her affairs in order and I was told she can will..quit claim deed etc her 50% to me and my father does not have to be present..so let me say it like this..ok 2 people own a house,free n clear they have 4 siblings,like always there is 1 who wants $$ from the house and will force it to probate and I can not afford to buy anyone out so how do you stop this? my reading is a living trust. ???? why is it so hard the man worked very hard for this house and does not want any kids paying off any others and wants it to be here to be lived in buy his family,and the state makes it so hard...thank you for the reply..
 
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anteater

Senior Member
When you stated, "...just simple leave to used by family.." and then "wants it to be here to be lived in buy his family," I interpreted that to mean that your parents were looking for a way to leave the house so that all the kids could have use of the house - rather like a vacation property.

There appear to be 3 ways in which real estate can be owned in Rhode Island:

Tenancy by the entirety: This form of ownership is available only for married couples. There are number of features to this form, but, for your purposes, there are two that are pertinent. The couple is treated as one "legal person." Therefore, one spouse alone cannot take actions regarding ownership. And it carries with it the right of survivorship. That means that when one spouse dies, the other spouse automatically becomes the sole owner by operation of law rather than through other means such a will, a trust, etc.

Joint tenancy with right of survivorship (sometimes just shortened to "joint tenancy"): When one co-owner dies, the other co-owner(s) become the sole owner(s) by operation of law rather than through other means such a will, a trust, etc. The difference with tenancy by the entirety is that, while the co-owners are alive, each co-owner can convey their ownership interest if they desire through sale, gift, etc. without the co-owner's agreement. And each co-owner can take action to break the joint tenancy and convert their interest into a tenancy in common.

Tenancy in common: Each co-owner can, while living, can convey their ownership interest if they desire through sale, gift, etc. without the co-owner's agreement. In addition, a co-owner can specify what happens with their interest when the co-owner dies by means of a will, a trust, etc.

Therefore, if Mom and Dad own as tenants in common, then Mom can make provisions on the disposition of her interest when she dies. If they own as joint tenants, then she would have to "break" the joint tenancy to convert it to tenancy in common first. I don't know details of Rhode Island law, but, if this is necessary, she probably can do it without Dad's approval and it is probably fairly simple to accomplish.


I have to say that the end goals here a bit unclear. You speak of Mom and Dad having a goal. But then, you only mention Mom taking certain actions. Is the goal that you alone own the entire property when they both pass away?

And then:

I was told she can will..quit claim deed etc
Is it her intention to quit claim her interest to you now or devise her interest to you when she passes away? What happens to your father's interest?


EDITED TO ADD: Using the passive voice ("I was told...") is not a good thing. Who did the telling may make a difference in responses. If it was a Rhode Island real estate/probate attorney who had viewed a copy of the deed, responders here will probably make the presumption that the attorney knows whereof he/she speaks and, unless it seems way out of line, accept it as the way the law is in Rhode Island. After all, nobody knows the statutes and case law in every state. On the other hand, if the telling was by various neighbors and the grocery store clerk, responders here will probably look at it more skeptically. [Sermon over.]
 
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curb1

Senior Member
I hope your mother gets quality advice. This is a can of worms in the making and the family will suffer for years. Is that what your mother wants? Is that what your father wants? Your family has a communication problem that needs to be solved before some of this is set in stone.

How do you get along with your siblings?
 

Jenny0147

Junior Member
ty

When you stated, "...just simple leave to used by family.." and then "wants it to be here to be lived in buy his family," I interpreted that to mean that your parents were looking for a way to leave the house so that all the kids could have use of the house - rather like a vacation property.

There appear to be 3 ways in which real estate can be owned in Rhode Island:

Tenancy by the entirety: This form of ownership is available only for married couples. There are number of features to this form, but, for your purposes, there are two that are pertinent. The couple is treated as one "legal person." Therefore, one spouse alone cannot take actions regarding ownership. And it carries with it the right of survivorship. That means that when one spouse dies, the other spouse automatically becomes the sole owner by operation of law rather than through other means such a will, a trust, etc.

Joint tenancy with right of survivorship (sometimes just shortened to "joint tenancy"): When one co-owner dies, the other co-owner(s) become the sole owner(s) by operation of law rather than through other means such a will, a trust, etc. The difference with tenancy by the entirety is that, while the co-owners are alive, each co-owner can convey their ownership interest if they desire through sale, gift, etc. without the co-owner's agreement. And each co-owner can take action to break the joint tenancy and convert their interest into a tenancy in common.

Tenancy in common: Each co-owner can, while living, can convey their ownership interest if they desire through sale, gift, etc. without the co-owner's agreement. In addition, a co-owner can specify what happens with their interest when the co-owner dies by means of a will, a trust, etc.

Therefore, if Mom and Dad own as tenants in common, then Mom can make provisions on the disposition of her interest when she dies. If they own as joint tenants, then she would have to "break" the joint tenancy to convert it to tenancy in common first. I don't know details of Rhode Island law, but, if this is necessary, she probably can do it without Dad's approval and it is probably fairly simple to accomplish.


I have to say that the end goals here a bit unclear. You speak of Mom and Dad having a goal. But then, you only mention Mom taking certain actions. Is the goal that you alone own the entire property when they both pass away?

And then:


Is it her intention to quit claim her interest to you now or devise her interest to you when she passes away? What happens to your father's interest?


EDITED TO ADD: Using the passive voice ("I was told...") is not a good thing. Who did the telling may make a difference in responses. If it was a Rhode Island real estate/probate attorney who had viewed a copy of the deed, responders here will probably make the presumption that the attorney knows whereof he/she speaks and, unless it seems way out of line, accept it as the way the law is in Rhode Island. After all, nobody knows the statutes and case law in every state. On the other hand, if the telling was by various neighbors and the grocery store clerk, responders here will probably look at it more skeptically. [Sermon over.]
thanks for the replies ! ok the own as joint,mom wants to secure me her half at the very least (how is best) now dads problem is he thinks that when he dies,hes just gonna leave it to all 4 of us and none of us will force it sold which he is very wrong it will be forced to probate for sure which 3 of us could not afford to pay her off to keep the house, the poor guy worked very hard to pay this house of its been paid off and free n clear for over 20 yrs ! so how does he stop that ? with out 'not' leaving the out of will..deed...I was told only a living trust ? hope Im clearer..thanks again !
 

anteater

Senior Member
... it will be forced to probate for sure which 3 of us could not afford to pay her off to keep the house
There appears to be misconceptions about the various ways to pass property when one passes away. Will/probate, living trust/living trust administration... That is not the relevant question to be addressed. The relevant question is who the document - will, living trust... - passes the property to.

As long as you end up with various co-owners, any of the co-owners can eventually force a sale of the property through what is called a partition lawsuit if the other co-owners cannot purchase the interest of the co-owner that wants out.

That is why I repeat:

But, since this is not a do-it-yourself project, I suggest that they consult with an estate planning attorney.
 

tranquility

Senior Member
Not that there is anything wrong with that....
Except that it is not the OP's property. The plan seems problematical in its goals. The real purpose of all the jumping around is to help the OP secure a place to stay over the objections of at least one other beneficiary. Also, both principals don't seem convinced yet either.

While a trust could possibly work, doing it on your own would be stupid. The property will be tied up for quite some time if things are done incorrectly and little flexibility is possible if the goal of forcing all to share the property is achieved.
 

anteater

Senior Member
Except that it is not the OP's property.
Oh, Tranq, don't be so stuffy! After all, I put a bunch of "grinnies" after that!


Otherwise, I agree. This is a mess waiting to happen.

Jenny:
why is it so hard the man worked very hard for this house and does not want any kids paying off any others and wants it to be here to be lived in buy his family,and the state makes it so hard..
It isn't the state making things hard. It is the desired outcome that is hard.
 

curb1

Senior Member
I repeat (if that is permissible), "Your family has a communication problem that needs to be solved before some of this is set in stone".

There needs to be a family agreement about this. Seems that there is the desire by OP and mother to circumvent the desires of others. This is/will be a mess if family has diverging intentions that are legally forced to diverge.
 

anteater

Senior Member
There needs to be a family agreement about this. Seems that there is the desire by OP and mother to circumvent the desires of others. This is/will be a mess if family has diverging intentions that are legally forced to diverge.
Sounds like The Godfather, Part III

MICHAEL
What is it that you want?

LUCCHESI
Yes -- you will take control. We’ll gladly put you at the helm of our little fleet. But our ships must all sail in the same direction. Otherwise, who can say how long your stay with us will last? It’s not personal, it’s only business. You should know, Godfather.

MICHAEL
Very well. You want to do business with me. I will do business with you.
 
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Jenny0147

Junior Member
grrrrrrrrr

thanks again,I know its sounds crazy so let me try this,...ok mom wants what I want which is to secure I DO NOT LOSE THE HOUSE(she dont care about the others per say).so how does she do that ?

#2 dad does not want the house sold,nor we force any other kids to buy out the others (crazy yes he's an 80 old fashion guy who thinks kids are not cruel) But also does not want house sold by anyone at any time AND HE DOES THAT HOW ? seems I read only way is to put it a living trust which will not full exclude the others from living there etc,but they can not force to probate take any $ out etc..is this correct ??
hope this helps !

cant other be put on the trust but I control it,then all kids are happy and house is not sold ?
 

curb1

Senior Member
Do the other siblings want you to have the house? Does your Dad want just you to have the house? If the answer to those questions is "yes", then there are no problems. If the answer to those questions is "no", then there are problems. You have a sales job to do, otherwise you have a big mess that no amount of legal work will make better. Your biggest problem is that everyone doesn't agree with you and your mother and it is easy to understand why they don't agree with you and your mother.
 

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