Secretive executor, finding out value of an estate.

[jacob74]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Wisconsin. Relative died in Florida.

My Dad's uncle Wes died in December of 2013. My Uncle was named the executor and sole beneficiary in his will. Will was written about a year before Wes died, but my uncle was putting a lot of pressure on Wes to make the will so that someone "would be able to handle things" after he died. At the time, family believed that my Uncle could be trusted, since they were close. After Wes died, my uncle told his brother and sisters that he had made his decision and had decided that he deserved to keep all the money.

To make a long story short, we think the will can be contested for several reasons. For example, we know that the will was only made under pressure from my uncle, who is a tall, large, and loud man with a dominant personality. Will was made by my uncle's attorney while Wes was staying with him. After Wes refused to see my uncle's lawyer, my uncle had the lawyer come to his (my uncle's) house, and had to lie to Wes and tell him the lawyer was working pro bono, when in fact my uncle paid him.

My Dad needs to know whether it would be worthwhile to contest it, though. My uncle was a miser and very secretive about anything financial. Most of my uncle's money was in cash in bank accounts and probably payable on death, not other kinds of assets, and is not part of probate. Only about 150,000 is documented in probate. If Wes's will is successfully contested, the next of kin are his seven nieces and nephews, one of them being my Dad.

Is there a way to find out how much there was in those payable on death accounts, or to find out what the entire estate is worth? If its only 200,000-300,000 it wouldn't be worth it (it most likely isn't, because my father saw a statement for an account with hundreds of thousands in it that hadn't been active in a year), most likely, with lawyers charging 200+ an hour. If it's 600-700 thousand or more, though, my father might be interested in contesting. It's also possible some kind of settlement could be worked out. My Dad only stands to get 1/7th of the money, but at this point he is very angry with my uncle. My uncle has also lead his mother to believe that there isn't that much money left by Wes, and she is worried about him and whether he will be able to keep his house. My uncle also told my aunt to take him and my Dad out of her will because they didn't need the money, without talking to my Dad about it, even though he had decided to give my Dad almost none of Wes's money. In a sad coincidence, my aunt ended up dying shortly after making that new will, due to complications after surgery.

 

[jacob74]

uncle doesn't get to make that decision but the will made that decision. It is his money to do with what he wants. If wes wanted anything to go to anybody else, he would have put it in his will.




,why does it matter? If they were payable on death with a named beneficiary, they they are not a matter of probate. No matter what happens with the will, this money is not part of that.


get a copy of the probate file.

how were wes and your uncle related?

Where did you get your law degree? I'm curious. I guess you were there during the final year of Wes's life and heard my uncle talking about handling things for him. You also knew my 90 year old uncle's mental and physical state at the time, too. He was dependent on my uncle, staying at his home recovering after surgery, and my uncle had to badger him and then bring the lawyer to his house and lie to Wes to get him to cooperate. And Wes only wanted to get it over with as soon as possible without getting into any financial details with the lawyer, so he just put it in my uncle's name so that he would handle things when he died. Wes didn't even bother getting the will signed, and my uncle had to make another special trip to the Milwaukee area and strong arm him into signing it with a couple of neighbors as witnesses. As mentioned in my OP, there are other factors too that I didn't get into. I was making a long story short. My Dad has talked to a lawyer a little bit. There's a reason that there are provisions in the law for contesting wills.

I'm not even sure that that the bank accounts were POD. That's information I got from my Dad, but he may have assumed that they are POD since they aren't in probate. It's not like the payable on death accounts are untouchable either. The payable on death agreement can even be a part of the will, and would be invalidated if the will is successfully contested along with everything else in it.

EDIT: I see from your posting history you like to get in arguments about things you know "f--- all" about. Basically, you're a troll. Anyone knowledgable have any information we can use? There was other information I left out, but based on the hour long conversation my Dad had with a lawyer, there is pretty solid grounds to contest the will.

 

[jacob74]

you are missing the point. The will directs his estate. He gave it to uncle. Uncle has no obligation what so ever legally to give anybody anything, regardless what wes and uncle discussed.




but the "wes and uncle talked about the money going to others:" is not a valid basis to contest the will.



well, you said it, not me

nope. If they are POD or TOD they are not part of the probate estate. PODs and TODs are in effect (and legally as such in some states) trusts and are exempt from the probate estate. If you wanted to challenge a POD or TOD designation, you would have to challenge each and every one of them individually but guess what; since the will said uncle gets the entire estate, unless you were successful in overturning the will, it wouldn't matter since uncle would get it all anyway. If they are controlled by the will, then they are not TOD or POD designated accounts but simply part of the probate estate.

"

I didn't say that Wes and my uncle talking things over was the basis for challenging the will, did I? They didn't really discuss it. My uncle is not the type of person that is easy to talk things over with. He told my uncle how it needed to be and strong armed him into doing the will. I very briefly went over how he went about this. There are other circumstances, and I got into a few of them in my post.

If the POD designation was done IN THE WILL, and said will is INVALID, then the POD designation will also be INVALID since it was part of the will. My uncle would no longer be entitled to be the recipient of that money and it would become a part of the estate. My Dad got a glimpse at a bank account with nearly half a million dollars in it that hadn't been active in about a year, which is why we think there is a lot more there than what is showing up in the probate process. I need to talk to my Dad a little more and find out why he now thinks that at least some of that money was POD. Does he know this for certain, or was that just a guess on the part of my father and the lawyer he talked to for a little while on the phone. I also need to get a hold of the will and see what exactly is in there.

My Dad said that Wes had some debts that needed to be paid, so would everything even show up in probate, or would he only need to have enough assets in probate to cover the debts, since my uncle is the sole beneficiary?

Is there a way to find out what my uncle had at the time of his death and where it went, if it wasn't in probate? Would only the money in probate be part of the public record?

 

[anteater]

If the POD designation was done IN THE WILL, and said will is INVALID, then the POD designation will also be INVALID since it was part of the will.

A Payable on Death designation is done in the account registration at the bank. If there isn't a POD done with the account registration, then there is no POD.

A will can have provisions that designate that certain specific assets go to certain beneficiaries. But that is not the same as a POD.

An account with a POD designation is a non-probate asset and a will's provisions do not apply. Therefore, the validity of a will has no bearing on POD accounts.

 

[anteater]

all assets of the estate would be listed in the inventory but as I have said, the money in a POD account is not an estate asset so it isn't going to show up in the inventory.

so, how am I doing for a troll?

Pretty good.

But I would possibly quibble with the certainty about the non-probate assets being included in the inventory.

In some states, they would be included in the inventory even though not included as part of probate. In other states, they would not be included. I don't know about Florida.

 

[jacob74]

"

I didn't say that Wes and my uncle talking things over was the basis for challenging the will, did I? They didn't really discuss it. My uncle is not the type of person that is easy to talk things over with. He told my uncle how it needed to be and strong armed him into doing the will. I very briefly went over how he went about this. There are other circumstances, and I got into a few of them in my post.

If the POD designation was done IN THE WILL, and said will is INVALID, then the POD designation will also be INVALID since it was part of the will. My uncle would no longer be entitled to be the recipient of that money and it would become a part of the estate. My Dad got a glimpse at a bank account with nearly half a million dollars in it that hadn't been active in about a year, which is why we think there is a lot more there than what is showing up in the probate process. I need to talk to my Dad a little more and find out why he now thinks that at least some of that money was POD. Does he know this for certain, or was that just a guess on the part of my father and the lawyer he talked to for a little while on the phone. I also need to get a hold of the will and see what exactly is in there.

My Dad said that Wes had some debts that needed to be paid, so would everything even show up in probate, or would he only need to have enough assets in probate to cover the debts, since my uncle is the sole beneficiary?

Is there a way to find out what my uncle had at the time of his death and where it went, if it wasn't in probate? Would only the money in probate be part of the public record?

Hmm. I tried to make some edits to this post to make it more clear, but the edits didn't go through. The point is, my uncle Jerry and my GREAT uncle Wes didn't really discuss things. Uncle Jerry told Wes what he needed to do. He told Wes they wouldn't be going anywhere until the will was done. Jerry told Wes that the will was being done pro bono, when it was Jerry's personal lawyer, paid for by Jerry. Jerry told my Dad and my aunt that Wes told the lawyer to just put it in Jerry's name and let him divide it up after Wes was gone. I have emailed a lawyer and my Dad has talked to a lawyer with a more detailed version of what happened, and they both have said there does seem to be grounds to challenge the will. The question is whether it would be worth the cost. That's why we're trying to figure out the value of everything Wes had at the time he died. He was a miser and very secretive, and now uncle Jerry is being secretive about it too.

 

[jacob74]

then why are you here? Have dad go and file to contest the will.

I know that Payable on death assets probably don't show up in probate, though anteater says they might be listed in some states. The question isn't whether there might be grounds to contest the will, it's whether it would be WORTH THE COST. Paperwork would have to be filed. Lawyers would have to be hired to take depositions here in Wisconsin. The witnesses to the will signing are in the Milwaukee area. Our family is in Wisconsin while Wes's residence and place of death were in Florida.

I needed to know if there are other scenarios or types of assets that might cause some things NOT to be filed or to appear in the probate court (not sure of the legal terminology). Is there a way to get some kind of summary of what Wes had when he died? Anything other than the probate court records?

I now know that the bank accounts that Wes had here in Wisconsin were made payable on death in Jerry's name, probably at the same time Jerry went to the Milwaukee area to get Wes to sign the will. It would still be interesting to know the answers to the above question, since there may be assets we don't know about. My dad knew there were bank accounts out there, and he knows how much was in a couple of them. Is it possible that Wes there are assets that are considered part of the estate that may not have to be entered into probate for some reason? Does the fact that there is only one beneficiary make a difference? The one account with about 150,000 is more than enough to cover Wes's debts.

Again, we know that payable on death assets aren't going to be part of the estate covered by the will. Those would have to be challenged as well, and that would be much more difficult, unless some evidence appears that we don't know about yet.

 

[jacob74]

A Payable on Death designation is done in the account registration at the bank. If there isn't a POD done with the account registration, then there is no POD.

A will can have provisions that designate that certain specific assets go to certain beneficiaries. But that is not the same as a POD.

An account with a POD designation is a non-probate asset and a will's provisions do not apply. Therefore, the validity of a will has no bearing on POD accounts.

I thought the POD designation might be done in the will because of something I read on the Bieging, Shapiro and Barber website. "In the banking context, such a nonprobate transfer provision is most frequently found in a pay on death deposit account agreement whereby the owner of the account designates a beneficiary or beneficiaries to receive the funds in the account upon the death of the account owner. The law is clear that such a nonprobate transfer provision may be set forth in the instrument or deposit agreement itself or in a separate writing, including a will, executed either at the same time as the instrument or afterward. C.R.S. § 15-15-101(1)(a)." According to that, it can be put in the will and still be a non probate transfer. Maybe the layman can pass his time emailing them and get out of my thread.

 

[justalayman]

jacob74;3264515]I thought

that's a joke, right?