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Definition of threat..legal definition

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Dubdidit

Junior Member
tx. I'm being charged with robbery. No one is injured or made physical contact with during the alleged robbery. I was walking out with merchandise concealed. A manager im assuming started to follow me. I panicked.. knowing that the stores policy is to not engage anyone who possibly has a weapon I blurted out 3 words that may have been the most damming words in my entire life.."I have a knife". I knew I screwed up. I walked to the sidewalk and waited for the police.vwhen they got there I tried to deny it but they took me in. I have no problem pleeing guilty if I am in fact guilty but in my heart I don't feel as if I deserve the label of a felon and violent criminal.

Now on to my question..the state penal code mentions if a threat of serious imminent bodily injury or death is made during the commission or flight in a theft it is robbery. My question is this.. if I made no threat ie: I'm going to stab you,cut or slash you if you follow me then how can they say I made a threat. I was walking away from the guy and was probably 8 feet ahead of him. Imminent means going to happen how could he face imminent injury if my back was to him and I was on my way off the property.

It brings to mind the castle law..you can kill someone entrring your home but if they are walking or running away from you and you shoot you get charged with murder..by the way I had no weapon on me. Any thoughts?
 


CTU

Meddlesome Priestess
tx. I'm being charged with robbery. No one is injured or made physical contact with during the alleged robbery. I was walking out with merchandise concealed. A manager im assuming started to follow me. I panicked.. knowing that the stores policy is to not engage anyone who possibly has a weapon I blurted out 3 words that may have been the most damming words in my entire life.."I have a knife". I knew I screwed up. I walked to the sidewalk and waited for the police.vwhen they got there I tried to deny it but they took me in. I have no problem pleeing guilty if I am in fact guilty but in my heart I don't feel as if I deserve the label of a felon and violent criminal.

Now on to my question..the state penal code mentions if a threat of serious imminent bodily injury or death is made during the commission or flight in a theft it is robbery. My question is this.. if I made no threat ie: I'm going to stab you,cut or slash you if you follow me then how can they say I made a threat. I was walking away from the guy and was probably 8 feet ahead of him. Imminent means going to happen how could he face imminent injury if my back was to him and I was on my way off the property.

It brings to mind the castle law..you can kill someone entrring your home but if they are walking or running away from you and you shoot you get charged with murder..by the way I had no weapon on me. Any thoughts?
My thoughts?

My thoughts are to stop typing, stop talking and speak of this matter ONLY with your attorney. S/he is the only person who will know your case and can advise you based on the totality of circumstances.
 

Dubdidit

Junior Member
I plan on going to trial. so I guess I'm trying to see what my "peers" would think should my lawyer and I decide to go this route for my defense.anything I say here I will say in court. I will also openly admit to the court I did attempt to commit a theft..but robbery??? I mean when I think robbery I think a gun and a mask and "give me all your money while pointing a gun..not blurting out words while walking away.
 

Taxing Matters

Overtaxed Member
I plan on going to trial. so I guess I'm trying to see what my "peers" would think should my lawyer and I decide to go this route for my defense.anything I say here I will say in court. I will also openly admit to the court I did attempt to commit a theft..but robbery??? I mean when I think robbery I think a gun and a mask and "give me all your money while pointing a gun..not blurting out words while walking away.
You spoke the words “I have a knife.” The implication of that is that you are willing to use the knife to attack the store employee should he continue to come after you to effect the arrest for the theft. That’s a threat that would likely put the employee of fear of harm. The Texas Courts describe what is required for conviction this way:

Using this definition, robbery-by-placing-in-fear does not require that a defendant know that he actually places someone in fear, or know whom he actually places in fear. Rather, it requires that the defendant is aware that his conduct is reasonably certain to place someone in fear, and that someone actually is placed in fear.​

Howard v. State, 333 S.W.3d 137, 140 (Tex. Crim. App. 2011). The fact that you did not actually have a weapon isn’t much help here because the store employee had no idea you didn’t have the knife. Presumably the store employee will testify that he was frightened by your statement, thus satisfying that last part: someone was actually placed in fear by your statement. You would have to try to convince the jury that you were not aware that the statement “I have a knife” would not place him in fear of harm. That may be tough to do.

While the classic robbery is where the robber makes the threat in order to force the victim to give up property, if the threat is made at any time during the course the of the theft to obtain or keep the property taken that counts as a robbery. So making the threat while walking away in order to keep the stuff you took would appear to fall within the definition of robbery.

You might well have defense here, but you need to discuss it with your attorney. You should not reveal any more facts here or anywhere else on the internet as they could be used against you.

Unfortunately for you, it may well turn out that uttering those four words may turn what was basic theft into a more serious robbery conviction.
 

quincy

Senior Member
Dubdidit, we have as a member of this forum an attorney from Texas who can perhaps provide you with some additional insight (look for a post by CavemanLawyer), but I STRONGLY agree with CTU.

You can compromise your case and any defense you might have by discussing your case publicly. Your attorney would certainly advise against such postings, if he hasn't advised this already.

I understand you are not happy with the time your public defender has spent with you. Public defenders often have large caseloads and generally do not have the luxury of sitting down with every client for in-depth talks. That is an advantage a defendant has when they hire a private attorney. Although you can request of the court a change in counsel, I would not count on your judge approving the change.

Good luck.
 

Dubdidit

Junior Member
Thank you guys for the detailed responses. Is it true that the severity of the punishment goes up should I go decide to take it to trial vs pleaing out? This is one thing that does worry me, and makes me want to just sign what ever it is they offer me despite the fact I wish to have my day in court. I spent 90+ days in jail waiting for a bond reduction, and during that time everyone in there was telling stories of the prosecution, and even the public defenders advising their clients to "take the deal" because they will get the max if found guilty in a trial. I would like to exercise my right to a fair trial but if an increased punishment is a consequence for that I guess I will be forced to give that right up. Gosh this has been a nightmare for me. The entire time i sat there in jail I just kept hoping to wake up from this bad dream and return to my life before this. I am not a perfect person, but this..this is not supposed to be happening to me.
 

quincy

Senior Member
Thank you guys for the detailed responses. Is it true that the severity of the punishment goes up should I go decide to take it to trial vs pleaing out? This is one thing that does worry me, and makes me want to just sign what ever it is they offer me despite the fact I wish to have my day in court. I spent 90+ days in jail waiting for a bond reduction, and during that time everyone in there was telling stories of the prosecution, and even the public defenders advising their clients to "take the deal" because they will get the max if found guilty in a trial. I would like to exercise my right to a fair trial but if an increased punishment is a consequence for that I guess I will be forced to give that right up. Gosh this has been a nightmare for me. The entire time i sat there in jail I just kept hoping to wake up from this bad dream and return to my life before this. I am not a perfect person, but this..this is not supposed to be happening to me.
It is true that a plea deal offered to a defendant by a prosecutor is no longer valid if the defendant decides to have a jury hear his case. It is NOT NECESSARILY true that a defendant is better off with a plea agreement than he will be if he chooses a trial over an agreement.

Here the specific facts matter.

What can be said about trials is the outcome cannot be predicted with any certainty. The defendant's fate is unknown. By taking a plea agreement, the defendant eliminates the risk of having the jury return with a decision less favorable than offered by the prosecutor. But the flip side is also true. By accepting a plea agreement, the defendant may miss out on a jury decision more favorable than the one offered by the prosecutor.

It can be a crapshoot, in other words. It is smart for any defendant to question his attorney on the possible ramifications of going to trial over accepting a plea agreement, fully understanding the choices and consequences. If you trust your attorney, I recommend you listen carefully to what he says and recommends. He is there to represent your best interests.
 
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Dubdidit

Junior Member
It is true that a plea deal offered to a defendant by a prosecutor is no longer valid if the defendant decides to have a jury hear his case. It is NOT NECESSARILY true that a defendant is better off with a plea agreement than he will be if he chooses a trial over an agreement.

Here the specific facts matter.

What can be said about trials is the outcome cannot be predicted with any certainty. The defendant's fate is unknown. By taking a plea agreement, the defendant eliminates the risk of having the jury return with a decision less favorable than offered by the prosecutor. But the flip side is also true. By accepting a plea agreement, the defendant may miss out on a jury decision more favorable than the one offered by the prosecutor.

It can be a crapshoot, in other words. It is smart for any defendant to question his attorney on the possible ramifications of going to trial over accepting a plea agreement, fully understanding the choices and consequences. If you trust your attorney, I recommend you listen carefully to what he says and recommends. He is there to represent your best interests.
This is exactly what I was thinking. I guess there is not much else I can do. My trial dates approaching fairly quickly, and all I am doing is worrying. I am just going to put my fate in the hands of the chaotic universe and hope for the best. I guess right now I should worry more about spending time with my family, and deal with my court issues in court. Thanks guys.
 

quincy

Senior Member
Thank you guys for the detailed responses. Is it true that the severity of the punishment goes up should I go decide to take it to trial vs pleaing out? This is one thing that does worry me, and makes me want to just sign what ever it is they offer me despite the fact I wish to have my day in court. I spent 90+ days in jail waiting for a bond reduction, and during that time everyone in there was telling stories of the prosecution, and even the public defenders advising their clients to "take the deal" because they will get the max if found guilty in a trial. I would like to exercise my right to a fair trial but if an increased punishment is a consequence for that I guess I will be forced to give that right up. Gosh this has been a nightmare for me. The entire time i sat there in jail I just kept hoping to wake up from this bad dream and return to my life before this. I am not a perfect person, but this..this is not supposed to be happening to me.
This is exactly what I was thinking. I guess there is not much else I can do. My trial dates approaching fairly quickly, and all I am doing is worrying. I am just going to put my fate in the hands of the chaotic universe and hope for the best. I guess right now I should worry more about spending time with my family, and deal with my court issues in court. Thanks guys.
You can check back here to see if CavemanLawyer has anything to add that might be helpful.

Your attorney is probably pretty used to the chaos in the universe (or in court cases, at any rate) so trusting that he is working for you and knows what he is doing can perhaps relieve some of your stress.

Good luck.
 

CavemanLawyer

Senior Member
I think you have already gotten your answer but the threaten component of the robbery statute is actually and either/or. You can threaten someone with imminent bodily injury OR you can do something that places them in fear of imminent bodily injury. So you don't have to threaten to do any specific act with a weapon, the mere implication that you have a weapon can be enough. There is lots of caselaw regarding how just mentioning a firearm or knife in the course of a theft can place a reasonable person in fear of at least bodily injury depending on the circumstances. All of the case law in this issue analyzes the fear requirement as the amount of fear necessary to accomplish the theft, which is the whole point of a robbery. In other words, would a reasonable person be more inclined to just give up and let you take the property after you uttered those words? I would definitely say yes.

The punishment range is going to be the same whether your accept a plea bargain or go to trial. Whether you will wind up better or worse in a trial is impossible to predict. Have you been offered a plea bargain? You may be offered a deferred probation or even a lesser charge which would certainly be worth considering. I can tell you that if found guilty in trial you will be a convicted felon and you can receive anywhere from 2 years in prison to 20 years in prison or you could receive probation as little as two years up to 10 years...and there is also a possible $10,000 fine. A deferred probation would prevent you from having a felony conviction but you can only receive that through a plea bargain or if you plead guilty to the court and the judge grants that sentence. Talk to your attorney about your judge's reputation for granting deferred and definitely talk to him about any potential plea bargain.
 

Dubdidit

Junior Member
I think you have already gotten your answer but the threaten component of the robbery statute is actually and either/or. You can threaten someone with imminent bodily injury OR you can do something that places them in fear of imminent bodily injury. So you don't have to threaten to do any specific act with a weapon, the mere implication that you have a weapon can be enough. There is lots of caselaw regarding how just mentioning a firearm or knife in the course of a theft can place a reasonable person in fear of at least bodily injury depending on the circumstances. All of the case law in this issue analyzes the fear requirement as the amount of fear necessary to accomplish the theft, which is the whole point of a robbery. In other words, would a reasonable person be more inclined to just give up and let you take the property after you uttered those words? I would definitely say yes.

The punishment range is going to be the same whether your accept a plea bargain or go to trial. Whether you will wind up better or worse in a trial is impossible to predict. Have you been offered a plea bargain? You may be offered a deferred probation or even a lesser charge which would certainly be worth considering. I can tell you that if found guilty in trial you will be a convicted felon and you can receive anywhere from 2 years in prison to 20 years in prison or you could receive probation as little as two years up to 10 years...and there is also a possible $10,000 fine. A deferred probation would prevent you from having a felony conviction but you can only receive that through a plea bargain or if you plead guilty to the court and the judge grants that sentence. Talk to your attorney about your judge's reputation for granting deferred and definitely talk to him about any potential plea bargain.
Thank you for responding. I understand what you are saying, and I guess I must put the white flag up. As for as a plea bargain, My deadline date is tomorrow at 8am, and my attorney has yet to talk to the DA, or me for that matter. He has not even filed for a motion for discovery. I have to be at court at 8am tomorrow and I have no idea what to expect. I am hoping he does some home work over night. I hope there is a way he can get my plea deadline date reset so that way I can think over my choices for a bit rather than make an off the cuff decision. It would really suck if I am forced into taking or rejecting an offer without having anytime to think about it. This is truly a life altering even in every sense, and 30 minutes to decide is not enough. I really feel like I am about to puke right about now!
 

quincy

Senior Member
Thank you for responding. I understand what you are saying, and I guess I must put the white flag up. As for as a plea bargain, My deadline date is tomorrow at 8am, and my attorney has yet to talk to the DA, or me for that matter. He has not even filed for a motion for discovery. I have to be at court at 8am tomorrow and I have no idea what to expect. I am hoping he does some home work over night. I hope there is a way he can get my plea deadline date reset so that way I can think over my choices for a bit rather than make an off the cuff decision. It would really suck if I am forced into taking or rejecting an offer without having anytime to think about it. This is truly a life altering even in every sense, and 30 minutes to decide is not enough. I really feel like I am about to puke right about now!
Your attorney should provide guidance. Do not feel FORCED into a decision if you have additional questions. Make sure your attorney addresses all questions you have to your full understanding.

Good luck tomorrow.
 

Dubdidit

Junior Member
Ok. So I went in. My lawyer was an hour late. We approached the bench,and right off the back he tells the judge that we aren't pleeing out and we want a trial. I'm horrified by this! The prosecutor gets asked by the judge what her statement is, she tells the judge she may want to resolve this today. My lawyer ignores her for the most part and calls me outside.

This is where it gets good. We go over the police reports and there are mismatching statements about what happened. The police wrote in the report I admitted to threating with a knife and have it on body cam. I never said anything close to that so if they do indeed have body cam footage this will show they are making stuff up. Also, one witness told police that I kept putting my hands in my pocket saying f u bring it on to the store employee..this actually made me laugh..first of all it didn't happen second , if I was trying to make a hasty escape why would I stop and turn towards them and call them out. The next blunder is that the police lied about watching the surveillance footage that day.During the arrest the police were advised that they could not obtain the footage because it is stored off site and would take a few days to get. Let's also not forget to mention that apparently they have no proof I stole anything. They found some merchandise stashed nearby but when checked for finger prints there were none. This is also a lie. I watched them lift prints and there were prints along the top edge of the box, quite a few of them..but the police report says there was none. Oh geez there is so much more, but moving on..

My lawyer tells me something about commiting a robbery but on a scale a minimal robbery,but he would talk to the prosecutor quickly. He briefly walks in to speak with her for about 4 minutes.. He comes out and CLAIMS she says she is starting to think this is more of a shoplifting case but has no deal to offer at the moment. I am a bit weary of this statement by my lawyer but he says to trust him. I told him he's a lawyer why wouldn't I trust him.

Now I'm not too sure what's going on here but I feel about 25 percent better...
 

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