Horrible

[LdiJ]

What is the name of your state? IN

This is an example of why I worry sometimes about the advice that we give on these forums. I worry that we talk parents out of doing what they need to do to protect their children....and that its not always good advice.

Sometimes it may be wiser and safer to either risk hiding children from a parent....or to risk contempt. We almost never acknowledge that.

This is a mother who could have easily asked us for advice....we are high in the search engines. Of course, no one can predict with any accuracy who is going to snap...and who isn't. There is no way to protect every child. However I don't ever want to be responsible for convincing a parent not to even try to protect their children...and have something like this be the result.

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060614/LOCAL/606140491

 

[Hypocritical]

This makes my heart ache. I will hug my children a little closer today.

Ldij, you are a true humanitarian. I've been watching your responses here. May good karma return upon you tenfold.

 

[GrowUp!]

What is the name of your state? IN

This is an example of why I worry sometimes about the advice that we give on these forums. I worry that we talk parents out of doing what they need to do to protect their children....and that its not always good advice.

Sometimes it may be wiser and safer to either risk hiding children from a parent....or to risk contempt. We almost never acknowledge that.

This is a mother who could have easily asked us for advice....we are high in the search engines. Of course, no one can predict with any accuracy who is going to snap...and who isn't. There is no way to protect every child. However I don't ever want to be responsible for convincing a parent not to even try to protect their children...and have something like this be the result.

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060614/LOCAL/606140491

This is a horrible story. The second divorce-related story to make the news in as many days (just a couple of days ago, a Family Court Judge in Reno, NV was shot from a distance through a window by a guy accused of murdering his wife because of a divorce proceeding...fortunately those kids weren't harmed physically).

I did not see anything in the story where the estranged wife remotely knew he was going to snap. And since he was wired up on drugs...

The only advice I would've offered her (and anyone else) is don't break that kind of news to someone while they are at work. Although I realize it's the "easy way" out. It could also be possible that there were discussions during this phone call of the children going w/her or something like that, which might have "made him" do what he did with the children (the mentality that if I can't have them, no one will). But that's nothing but an assumption.

 

[casa]

What is the name of your state? IN

This is an example of why I worry sometimes about the advice that we give on these forums. I worry that we talk parents out of doing what they need to do to protect their children....and that its not always good advice.

Sometimes it may be wiser and safer to either risk hiding children from a parent....or to risk contempt. We almost never acknowledge that.

This is a mother who could have easily asked us for advice....we are high in the search engines. Of course, no one can predict with any accuracy who is going to snap...and who isn't. There is no way to protect every child. However I don't ever want to be responsible for convincing a parent not to even try to protect their children...and have something like this be the result.

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060614/LOCAL/606140491

Terrible story...

I don't see how there is any connection with legal advice though....She had just told Dad she wanted a divorce & kids were @ Grandpa's for the day as per-usual. Where is the connection to 'incorrect advice'?? Mom hadn't filed and there was no court order to be in contempt OF.

 

[stealth2]

I suspect LDi is refering to when women are told that Dad has the same rights, to let him see the kids and that they need PROOF of abuse.

 

[casa]

I suspect LDi is refering to when women are told that Dad has the same rights, to let him see the kids and that they need PROOF of abuse.

In this case, it would be the same (correct) advice...They were still married, Mom had not filed but just told Dad she wanted a Divorce. There were no previous incidents but a drug charge in 2003 (She'd stayed with him for 3 yrs after that)...so a court would not likely deny Dad visitations either. It's tragic that some parents freak out like that~ But it doesn't change the burden of proof re; child custody. The Mom didn't seek any advice, hadn't filed anything in court...There seemed to be no real way of knowing in advance the Dad would react so violently.

 

[stealth2]

I agree. One can't foresee every eventuality. At the end of the day, perhaps the only advice we can - or should - give people is.... "speak with a local attorney."

 

[LdiJ]

I suspect LDi is refering to when women are told that Dad has the same rights, to let him see the kids and that they need PROOF of abuse.

Well...I don't mean that specifically. I mean more the way that we beat them down and act as though they cannot take ANY actions to protect their children, no matter what their particular story is. I think that we don't treat each case as individually as we should.

Casa....I didn't mean that this mother necessarily got any advice from anyone. She may have, she may not have. I doubt if any news story is going to include whether or not a parent got advice from an
internet message board. However, if a mom came on this board saying that she wanted a divorce and that her husband had problems with drugs, and verbal or physical abuse.....and she wanted to either hide the children from him or get a restraining order against him to stay away from the children, until she could get supervised visitation ordered, what would we tell her?

Would we give her any advice at all about how she might go about making sure that the kids are safe?

Or would we simply tell her, "He's the dad, he has rights, if you can't prove it, tough luck"?

That is why I am concerned about...and have been for a long time. Because our advice is almost always the second answer...no matter what someone's story actually is.

 

[Skylyn]

What is the name of your state? IN

This is an example of why I worry sometimes about the advice that we give on these forums. I worry that we talk parents out of doing what they need to do to protect their children....and that its not always good advice.

Sometimes it may be wiser and safer to either risk hiding children from a parent....or to risk contempt. We almost never acknowledge that.

This is a mother who could have easily asked us for advice....we are high in the search engines. Of course, no one can predict with any accuracy who is going to snap...and who isn't. There is no way to protect every child. However I don't ever want to be responsible for convincing a parent not to even try to protect their children...and have something like this be the result.

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060614/LOCAL/606140491

Knock it off LD and get off your cross. If you're worried about your advice, maybe it's time for a break. Your biases have been showing a quite clearly lately.

 

[nextwife]

Well...I don't mean that specifically. I mean more the way that we beat them down and act as though they cannot take ANY actions to protect their children, no matter what their particular story is. I think that we don't treat each case as individually as we should.

Casa....I didn't mean that this mother necessarily got any advice from anyone. She may have, she may not have. I doubt if any news story is going to include whether or not a parent got advice from an
internet message board. However, if a mom came on this board saying that she wanted a divorce and that her husband had problems with drugs, and verbal or physical abuse.....and she wanted to either hide the children from him or get a restraining order against him to stay away from the children, until she could get supervised visitation ordered, what would we tell her?

Would we give her any advice at all about how she might go about making sure that the kids are safe?

Or would we simply tell her, "He's the dad, he has rights, if you can't prove it, tough luck"?

That is why I am concerned about...and have been for a long time. Because our advice is almost always the second answer...no matter what someone's story actually is.

There arew lots of NCPs who come here concerned because mom or her live-in boyfriend are using drugs, or boyfriend has a violent history and the kids are left in his care and the same thing prevails: we DON"T advise NCP to withhold children from their potentially dangerous custodial home.

There have been nearly as many stories in the news in which custodial mom brings men into their home, maybe a new boyfriend, who ultimately snap and hurt the mom and the other kids, yet NC dad can do nothing to protect his kids from mom's bad choices in future guys!

Even when mom plays musical guys for years, and dad has a very stable home life, dad cannot get custody, because mom isn't technically "unfit"

 

[casa]

Well...I don't mean that specifically. I mean more the way that we beat them down and act as though they cannot take ANY actions to protect their children, no matter what their particular story is. I think that we don't treat each case as individually as we should.

Casa....I didn't mean that this mother necessarily got any advice from anyone. She may have, she may not have. I doubt if any news story is going to include whether or not a parent got advice from an
internet message board. However, if a mom came on this board saying that she wanted a divorce and that her husband had problems with drugs, and verbal or physical abuse.....and she wanted to either hide the children from him or get a restraining order against him to stay away from the children, until she could get supervised visitation ordered, what would we tell her?

Would we give her any advice at all about how she might go about making sure that the kids are safe?

Or would we simply tell her, "He's the dad, he has rights, if you can't prove it, tough luck"?

That is why I am concerned about...and have been for a long time. Because our advice is almost always the second answer...no matter what someone's story actually is.

OK, then this is a "What If" situation~ (Though in this case it was noted there were no other previous issues/problems re; abuse/violence...only a 3 yr. old drug charge for Dad, which Mom stayed with him afterwards).

If a parent came here stating there was abuse...I would recommend contacting a therapist or Social Services. There are ways of proving abuse. Police reports, counselors, CPS, voice mails/e-mails etc.

The problem <IMO> is that many parents don't leave an abusive spouse or minimize the drugs/abuse until they finally leave...then want everyone to help them deny the other parent time with the children.

I hate to say it, but this Mom stayed with a man after a Meth charge...for 3 more years...so WHO, really, put these children in danger in the 1st place??

 

[LdiJ]

OK, then this is a "What If" situation~ (Though in this case it was noted there were no other previous issues/problems re; abuse/violence...only a 3 yr. old drug charge for Dad, which Mom stayed with him afterwards).

If a parent came here stating there was abuse...I would recommend contacting a therapist or Social Services. There are ways of proving abuse. Police reports, counselors, CPS, voice mails/e-mails etc.

The problem <IMO> is that many parents don't leave an abusive spouse or minimize the drugs/abuse until they finally leave...then want everyone to help them deny the other parent time with the children.

I hate to say it, but this Mom stayed with a man after a Meth charge...for 3 more years...so WHO, really, put these children in danger in the 1st place??

I know.....However, I used this case simply to illustrate a point I was trying to make. I didn't mean for us to pick this one apart.

I would just like this board to take cases more individually....and to acknowledge that there may actually be occasions where its wiser and safer to either keep a parent away from the children, or risk contempt of court.

 

[rmet4nzkx]

While tragic, these things happen and are the exception to the rule.
Mom did what she could, the police knew some time back re his drug use nut not recently and he had not gotten in trouble since, they were separated, she placed the children in the care of someone she trusted, she called him on the phone so as to avoid a dangerous confrontation, he did not act strangely to those who saw him that day with the children aside from the abduction and assult , friends even drove him to get the children. What more might we have advised, to get a restraining order? That doesn't necessiarly hinder anyone and sometimes inrages a person, What else might we advise, to ask for supervised visitation, but we would also tell her that past drug use followed by clean record might not be strong enough to prove current drug use, especially since they were separated. What else might she do? Sometimes a person is stuck between a rock and a hard place and domestic disputes often dangerous and unpredictable.

Here is a link to a transcript rerun from 2005, on Dateline the other day, "On the Run" on the surface re PAS but the child has Asperger's syndrome which would also account for the confabulations and false memories. http://cincinnatipas.com/dateline-ontherun.html What advice could we have given 16 years ago? What advice could we give today?

 

[nextwife]

I know.....However, I used this case simply to illustrate a point I was trying to make. I didn't mean for us to pick this one apart.

I would just like this board to take cases more individually....and to acknowledge that there may actually be occasions where its wiser and safer to either keep a parent away from the children, or risk contempt of court.

So, if a non-custodial dad is worried about mom's current live-in boyfriend or husband's tendancies, or her drug use,, he should withhold the kids and take his chances with the courts?

 

[rmet4nzkx]

I know.....However, I used this case simply to illustrate a point I was trying to make. I didn't mean for us to pick this one apart.

I would just like this board to take cases more individually....and to acknowledge that there may actually be occasions where its wiser and safer to either keep a parent away from the children, or risk contempt of court.

We DO takes cases individually and consider the facts, we just don't always agree with your personal bias. Sometimes our hands are tied as to what we can advise within the law and this isn't a support, rant or debate forum.