Need guidance re: visitation situation, please!

[PixiesMama]

HI all! I live in Indiana. I have two girls, age 8 and 24 months. I've been divorced for nearly 1 year (date is Feb. 24th). Background: My ex is an alcoholic. He works for the Union; so when we were married, he was home very little. (Gone for months on end, literally; probably home only about 25% of the time.) In other words, he has VERY little parenting time under his belt. There is very little bond between him and the girls. In the time that we've been divorced, he's probably seen the girls 10-12 times. He always comes to my home and sometimes stays overnight with them here. He's taken the oldest overnight once (to go camping); he's never had the baby overnight. He doesn't have a home of his own (he stays in motels, mainly); when he's low on funds (which is usually since he's unemployed), he stays with his girlfriend in Ohio (and uses this as his address). Our visitation agreement is not set; it just says the standard in regard to agreed upon when available.

Over Christmas, he got upset with me because he called and said "I'm on my way over" and I had no knowledge that he desired to see the kids that day (the oldest was at my parent's home). He apparently expects us to sit at home and wait for his call. After this incident, he said that for Spring Break, he would like to take the kids, since this arrangement wasn't working out for him.

His proposition is that he will take both children to Ohio for the week of Spring Break to stay at his girlfriend's house. (On a personal level, I have a huge problem with this as this is the woman that he had an affair with that ultimately resulted in the end of our (already hopeless) marriage. But that's just an aside point...)

I'm trying, obviously, to figure out how I can stop this from happening because I think his whole proposition will be emotionally overwhelming for the children. As I mentioned, he doesn't have a lot of parenting experience. I think it's inappropriate for him to keep the kids for that length of time when there's no precedent, especially when this trip will involve introducing them to strangers (ie the girlfriend and her 2 teen-aged girls), and having them stay in the girlfriend's home. I just think this is way too much for a first visitation. Not to mention this would involve taking them out of state (is that even an issue?). And what about the issue of no overnight visits with members of the opposite sex as written into all Indiana divorces? I think I'm pretty safe with the baby since the guidelines seem to be in our favor because of her age.

I think I covered everything and tried to remain as true and unemotional as possible (ha!) with the facts. I appreciate any input you might have.

 

[LdiJ]

HI all! I live in Indiana. I have two girls, age 8 and 24 months. I've been divorced for nearly 1 year (date is Feb. 24th). Background: My ex is an alcoholic. He works for the Union; so when we were married, he was home very little. (Gone for months on end, literally; probably home only about 25% of the time.) In other words, he has VERY little parenting time under his belt. There is very little bond between him and the girls. In the time that we've been divorced, he's probably seen the girls 10-12 times. He always comes to my home and sometimes stays overnight with them here. He's taken the oldest overnight once (to go camping); he's never had the baby overnight. He doesn't have a home of his own (he stays in motels, mainly); when he's low on funds (which is usually since he's unemployed), he stays with his girlfriend in Ohio (and uses this as his address). Our visitation agreement is not set; it just says the standard in regard to agreed upon when available.

Over Christmas, he got upset with me because he called and said "I'm on my way over" and I had no knowledge that he desired to see the kids that day (the oldest was at my parent's home). He apparently expects us to sit at home and wait for his call. After this incident, he said that for Spring Break, he would like to take the kids, since this arrangement wasn't working out for him.

His proposition is that he will take both children to Ohio for the week of Spring Break to stay at his girlfriend's house. (On a personal level, I have a huge problem with this as this is the woman that he had an affair with that ultimately resulted in the end of our (already hopeless) marriage. But that's just an aside point...)

I'm trying, obviously, to figure out how I can stop this from happening because I think his whole proposition will be emotionally overwhelming for the children. As I mentioned, he doesn't have a lot of parenting experience. I think it's inappropriate for him to keep the kids for that length of time when there's no precedent, especially when this trip will involve introducing them to strangers (ie the girlfriend and her 2 teen-aged girls), and having them stay in the girlfriend's home. I just think this is way too much for a first visitation. Not to mention this would involve taking them out of state (is that even an issue?). And what about the issue of no overnight visits with members of the opposite sex as written into all Indiana divorces? I think I'm pretty safe with the baby since the guidelines seem to be in our favor because of her age.

I think I covered everything and tried to remain as true and unemotional as possible (ha!) with the facts. I appreciate any input you might have.

Could you get out your actual court orders and tell me word for word what they say?

The Indiana Parenting Time Guidelines call for the ncp to visit in the child's community until the child is 3 in a long distance situation. However, I really need the exact wording of your orders to be certain that you are ok in following the guidelines.

I do agree that for an infant and a two year old, who have only seen their father 10-12 times in the last year, that it might not be in their best interest to go out of state for a week. They need some shorter periods under their belts first.

 

[PixiesMama]

sure. it's very short. lol

CHILDREN

A. Custody. Wife shall have sole legal and physical custody of the minor children (names, birthdates), subject to Husband's rights of visitation as expressed below.

B. Visitation. The Husband shall have visitation with said minor children at all reasonable times and places.

Not sure if the lack of verbiage is in my favor or not. lol

 

[LdiJ]

sure. it's very short. lol

CHILDREN

A. Custody. Wife shall have sole legal and physical custody of the minor children (names, birthdates), subject to Husband's rights of visitation as expressed below.

B. Visitation. The Husband shall have visitation with said minor children at all reasonable times and places.

Not sure if the lack of verbiage is in my favor or not. lol

Ok...then it boils down to whether or not its "reasonable" for dad to take them out of state for a week, when he has only seen them 10-12 times in the last year, and has no "alone time" under his belt.

For me, that would not be reasonable until dad had had at some single overnights outside of your home, and a few weekend outside of your home, first. Otherwise, for me, it would be too much of an abrupt change for the children.

Does his family live close to you? Could he start spending some time with them there to ease them into the transition?

If it goes back to court, you really cannot be dinged because "reasonable" is a subjective term.

However, if it did go back to court, you would be ordered to follow the long distance guidelines, and that means not outside of your community until at least the oldest is three.

 

[ecmst12]

Since your divorce is final, you don't have much power as far as keeping the GF away from the kids. No-paramour orders are typically only for while the divorce is still in progress; now he is single and free to shack up with whoever he chooses.

I agree that a week in the gf's home in another state is a little much considering the circumstances. Can you offer him a compromise? Do his parents live in the area? Could he stay with them with the girls for a few days? Even a motel in the area could work. If he were to go to court to enforce his visitation, he would certainly be awarded overnights, as well as visits outside of your home. They are his children too and he is entitled to his own parenting time. Eventually, week long visitation would be reasonable, after the little one is a bit older and especially if he makes an effort to have a stronger relationship with them. And meeting and even staying with a girlfriend will probably happen too. You should just push for a gradual introductory period and stress that if he wants to be able to spend a week or more with them, he needs to become a more frequent presence in their lives first.

 

[ecmst12]

LD - they are 8 YEARS and 24 months

 

[LdiJ]

Since your divorce is final, you don't have much power as far as keeping the GF away from the kids. No-paramour orders are typically only for while the divorce is still in progress; now he is single and free to shack up with whoever he chooses.

I agree that a week in the gf's home in another state is a little much considering the circumstances. Can you offer him a compromise? Do his parents live in the area? Could he stay with them with the girls for a few days? Even a motel in the area could work. If he were to go to court to enforce his visitation, he would certainly be awarded overnights, as well as visits outside of your home. They are his children too and he is entitled to his own parenting time. Eventually, week long visitation would be reasonable, after the little one is a bit older and especially if he makes an effort to have a stronger relationship with them. And meeting and even staying with a girlfriend will probably happen too. You should just push for a gradual introductory period and stress that if he wants to be able to spend a week or more with them, he needs to become a more frequent presence in their lives first.

For what its worth, the IPTG do not allow for overnights in a long distance situation until at least the oldest child is 3. Its 5 hours per day.

I don't particularly agree with that part myself, and judge's often tweak that part and allow overnights/weekends in the children's home community.

 

[PixiesMama]

sorry yes -- 8 years and 24 months. that wasn't clear in my original post.

Since your divorce is final, you don't have much power as far as keeping the GF away from the kids. No-paramour orders are typically only for while the divorce is still in progress; now he is single and free to shack up with whoever he chooses.

ah okay. i thought it was always and forever. lol too bad. holy crap, how do people deal with this? i swear, this issue is the thing that had me hanging on to my marriage for the longest time; i couldn't bear the thought of having my kids meet "her". it doesn't keep me up at night anymore, but man it makes my blood boil when i let it. boo.

his parents are deceased. his closest family is in indy (about 2 hours from here), but conveniently about 1/2 way between where i am and where he is. not sure it matters though, because he's going to blow his top when i tell him that his plan is unreasonable. which brings me to my next point...

what to say to him exactly? something along the lines of "i've had some legal advice and based on our custody orders, having you take the children out of state for a week is not reasonable as I feel it will be emotionally overwhelming to them. i suggest that you perhaps take them for a night here and there to acclimate them to the process before we move on to week long visits."

i'm not trying to keep him from the kids. i'm really not. the fact that he's only seen them here in my home is not by my mandate or anything. it's what worked for both of us at the time. i understand that at some point, he's going to have them for longer periods of time and that (gulp...) he can take them and introduce them to whomever he pleases (insert kicking, screaming fit here). i just think this plan is wayyyy too much!

sigh. off to sort this all out in my head and come to terms with the fact that my kids are probably going to meet "her" someday. wah.

 

[PixiesMama]

If it goes back to court, you really cannot be dinged because "reasonable" is a subjective term.

just to be clear -- you're saying that i likely WILL NOT be dinged because reasonable is subjective and i have primary custody?

 

[Isis1]

this is just MY point of veiw.

in the very beginning, i got sick and tired of doing all the work, paying all the bills, cleaning the house, taking care of the ex's disabled father AND taking care of a newborn. i left him. with everything. kids, car, apartment. guess what? he struggled. ALOT. was pissed off. but he grew up. cuz he was forced to. mommy wouldn't let him move back in. took him two years to figure out how to handle it all. he's still a bit angery. but he's dealing with it. being a parent.

i have four kids total. i would LOVE a week break. am i the only mother in the world that WANTS a vacation?

 

[PixiesMama]

i would LOVE a week break. am i the only mother in the world that WANTS a vacation?

would i love a week to myself with no one to tend to? abso-friggin-lutely! but do i want to rip my kids' world's wide open by throwing them into an emotionally overwhelming and confusing situation just so my ex can get his "certified father" pin for the year? no way. my ex's life is one string of bad decisions after another. he's accountable to no one; he claims no higher power. he does whatever he pleases at whatever cost. his girlfriend is a pawn in his life that serves her purpose, but it is not in my children's life. the woman is a place holder. i'm sorry, but it's true. our story is long, sad, and complicated and i won't bore you with the details, but i can tell you this: my ex is one messed up dude and the only reason he's with this woman is because he needs to be with someone and i divorced him. he regularly asks for me to take him back (which i won't), but his plan is to get me to agree to reconcile, THEN break up with his GF. wrong order there, buddy. their relationship is destined for failure and i think it's cruel to subject children to new "families" where there is no committed relationship and the likely outcome is going to be more broken bonds. yes, it's a hard part of life that they need to deal with, but for now it's our job to protect them and keep their worlds safe. they've already had one family split, how many more will they have to endure?

i can honestly see not one shred of good that could come from having my kids spend a week with my ex and his girlfriend, except them spending time with their dad. everything else is just extraneous at this point, because that's the ONLY thing they need: to spend time with him in a semi-familiar environment.

as a related aside, for perspective... when my ex asked my oldest if she would like to spend spring break with him, do you know what she said? She said "where do you live?". she doesn't even know where he lives (as in, what STATE! not even, what city or street or house? what state!). she doesn't even know he HAS a girlfriend.

 

[ALGURLX1]

Since your divorce is final, you don't have much power as far as keeping the GF away from the kids. No-paramour orders are typically only for while the divorce is still in progress; now he is single and free to shack up with whoever he chooses.QUOTE]

Doesn't it depend on what the CO actually states. Mine (now this is a different state so I'm not sure it applies) but mine specifiaclly states my XH's wifes name cannot be there btwn the hours of 9om and 7am while our daughter is there. And they have been married for a few months now and we have been divorced for three yrs.- I know hecould go back and change it without a problem but he hasn't- SORRY for the highjack

 

[ecmst12]

I wouldn't even go into any big explanation. Just tell him No, you will not allow him to take the kids to a stranger's house, that far away, for that length of time. And then offer an alternative...you could meet him at his family's house, and he could have them for an afternoon or one overnight. And explain that he has to work up to such long visits.

You have SOLE CUSTODY. That's a big deal, most moms don't get that. Visitation is basically at your discretion, as long as you don't start abusing that discretion it's likely to stay that way.

 

[PixiesMama]

last point i wanted to make for now... he's only suggesting this to see how far he can push me. he KNOWS it's unreasonable and that I'm not going to go for it. furthermore, he's trying to punish me because of the incident over christmas. he told me he was going to be in the area for a few days at that he was going to a nearby town (about 40 minutes away) to see his friends and then probably something like "i'll see you (all) before I leave town for good." that's it! no day, no time, nothing! then he gets ticked at me because he called randomly 2 days later and i was supposed to know that he was coming in 30 minutes, although we had never discussed a time or place. how's THAT for unreasonable?

 

[PixiesMama]

Doesn't it depend on what the CO actually states. Mine (now this is a different state so I'm not sure it applies) but mine specifiaclly states my XH's wifes name cannot be there btwn the hours of 9om and 7am while our daughter is there. And they have been married for a few months now and we have been divorced for three yrs.- I know hecould go back and change it without a problem but he hasn't- SORRY for the highjack

but that's specifically written into your decree. i thought mine said something about the no paramours rule, i guess because my lawyer had mentioned it at some time. but it's NOT in my decree. so either i missed the boat on adding it (damn!) or it was only in the separation stage, as stated by the OP.