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Regarding my rights in repossession of my firearms from my college

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blueangel42

Junior Member
I reside in Maryland as a student on the eastern shore.

My post here was at 11,063 something characters and I could not shorten it to 10,000 without feeling like details were left out. Please see my post from this google drive link, I hope viewing the link is not something prohibited per your policy. [link removed]
 
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adjusterjack

Senior Member
Sorry, but I didn't read past the part that you had suicidal thoughts and had guns in the trunk of your car.

If you think your guns are being wrongfully withheld from you I suggest you hire an attorney.

Meantime I don't see separating guns from someone with suicidal thoughts as a bad thing.

That's the kind of person that has been responsible for the shooting massacres in the US.
 

Zigner

Senior Member, Non-Attorney
I reside in Maryland as a student on the eastern shore.

My post here was at 11,063 something characters and I could not shorten it to 10,000 without feeling like details were left out. Please see my post from this google drive link, I hope viewing the link is not something prohibited per your policy.
If you can't shorten it, then a forum won't help you.

Links are not allowed.
 

quincy

Senior Member
There is no east coast state that allows by state statute the carrying of guns on school campuses. These east coast states either prohibit as a state the carrying of guns on school campuses, or allow colleges/universities to make their own campus gun carry policies.

I did not check the link but removing guns from someone who is in possession of guns on a school campus that prohibit guns and/or who has said he is suicidal seems a reasonable action for the school to take.
 

HRZ

Senior Member
MD is not an open carry state....if you are the PA student who hit the papers a while back for antics in MD you have a lot more to worry about than getting your guns back
 

quincy

Senior Member
MD is not an open carry state....if you are the PA student who hit the papers a while back for antics in MD you have a lot more to worry about than getting your guns back
The guns were in the trunk of the car. That is not open carry.

I am thankful to whoever reported the original post - an 11,000 word post is definitely not forum-friendly and links are not allowed.
 

FlyingRon

Senior Member
He has bigger issues from his missive on the other law forum. He was hauled off for psych eval and his guns were locked up in the process. He's jumped the gun on the issue as well as he's not even availed himself of due process on the issue as the person who can make a decision on returning them was off for the Thanksgiving holidays so he really doesn't know what is happening.
 

quincy

Senior Member
He has bigger issues from his missive on the other law forum. He was hauled off for psych eval and his guns were locked up in the process. He's jumped the gun on the issue as well as he's not even availed himself of due process on the issue as the person who can make a decision on returning them was off for the Thanksgiving holidays so he really doesn't know what is happening.
Ah. What happens with the psych evaluation can determine what happens with his guns then, as can any laws he violated by having the guns on campus.

I strongly believe guns have no place on school campuses unless carried by police officers. Recent studies of those states that now have laws that permit guns on campus (the laws enacted in the belief that the campuses would be safer) have shown an increase in gun violence on their school campuses.
 
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blueangel42

Junior Member
A shortened version of my issue.

I understand it was long, I'm trying to figure out how to view and edit my original post and make it more concise; here is a condensed version of the issue:

First of all after reading a few of the comments:
Ah. What happens with the psych evaluation can determine what happens with his guns then, as can any laws he violated by having the guns on campus.
I was cleared the same day for that psyc eval that haulled me off to, and I was realeased the same day and deemed not a danger to myself or others. From my point of view and others who know me, the whole thing was blown out of proportion. Also, I was not carrying the weapons, they were in my car, and grandfathered to me when my stepdad passed, and as they were not handguns I did not need paperwork for them. They were shotguns I use solely for sporting clays.

Firearms that were in my car were rightfully detained, as they were on school property until I saw a medical professional. I'll say the whole situation of me being sent to the ER against my will was completely unnecessary, but that being said I understand why detaining firearms from someone being send to the ER by a counselor is a policy. However, I was cleared the same day by an on site medical professional (psychiatrist) that I was not a danger to myself or others after reiterating the same statements that I made to my counselors supervisor who had me sent to the ER in the first place. I'm saying, that the entire thing was unnecessary. Yes, you'll probably hear a different story from the counselor who ordered me to the ER, but you'll just have to take my word when I say, it was unnecessary.

Today my mother talked with the officer in charge of the safe and he said, that despite the fact I have been deemed not a danger to myself or others by medical professionals, he can't in good conscience release the guns to me due to the fact he knows I had suicidal thoughts, and will only release them to my parents. This is contradictory to what the other officers who drove me to and from the ER told me. Keep in mind, this is campus police, and to the best of my knowledge they are being held on campus grounds.

I clearly don't agree with him but can understand his reservations given the current climate of our society with regards to gun violence. I was in the wrong having them in my car and then having the car on school grounds, I clearly violated school policy in the name of "I know I'm not crazy and a danger to no one". That will be cleared up tomorrow. But I simply question if the officer has that right to deny me possession of the weapons and decide to give them to my parents instead, when I am just as much of an adult as they are, and cleared just as much mentally as they are. Clearly the officer is airing on the side of caution. I would completely understand if someone is deemed a danger to himself or others, but that is deemed by a medical professional such as a psychiatrist, not a campus police officer, or am I wrong about that?

I basically feel like I'm being told I'm not responsible enough to have possession of these firearms, on the grounds it is thought I have the potential to be a danger to others, by someone who does not have that authority, who is contradicting a medical professional who does have the authority to deem me as such. Its very distressing to me to be given that label of someone that could commit an atrocity by someone who has not even spoken to me and is not an acting medical professional. That is basically what this officer is indirectly saying. I literally catch and release bugs in my apartment, never been interested in killing an animal for sport, and would always try not to step on ants as a kid, but yeah I digress.

Truthfully if this is resolved the way the officer wants, my dad will come pick them up next week, who can then give them directly to me, and then I simply won't have them in my car anymore while attending school and leave them at a friends house where they are allowed.

But my current feeling is that my father shouldn't have to be a middle man for this situation. The officer is acting to, in a way of words and pardon my French, cover the ass of the school, so that in the hypothetical situation I do something, he can say my parents gave me the guns back, not the school. I just want to know if he has the legal right to make that decision when I have been cleared by medical professionals to not be a danger to myself or others.
 
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quincy

Senior Member
I understand it was long; here is a condensed version of the issue:

Firearms that were in my car were rightfully detained, as they were on school property until I saw a medical professional. I'll say the whole situation of me being sent to the ER against my will was completely unnecessary, but that being said I understand why detaining firearms from someone being send to the ER by a counselor is a policy. However, I was cleared the same day by an on site medical professional (psychiatrist) that I was not a danger to myself or others after reiterating the same statements that I made to my counselors supervisor who had me sent to the ER in the first place. I'm saying, that the entire thing was unnecessary. Yes, you'll probably hear a different story from the counselor who ordered me to the ER, but you'll just have to take my word when I say, it was unnecessary.

Today my mother talked with the officer in charge of the safe and he said, that despite the fact I have been deemed not a danger to myself or others by medical professionals, he can't in good conscience release the guns to me due to the fact he knows I had suicidal thoughts, and will only release them to my parents. This is contradictory to what the other officers who drove me to and from the ER told me. Keep in mind, this is campus police, and to the best of my knowledge they are being held on campus grounds.

I clearly don't agree with him but can understand his reservations given the current climate of our society with regards to gun violence. I was in the wrong having them in my car and then having the car on school grounds, I clearly violated school policy in the name of "I know I'm not crazy and a danger to no one". That will be cleared up tomorrow. But I simply question if the officer has that right to deny me possession of the weapons and decide to give them to my parents instead, when I am just as much of an adult as they are, and cleared just as much mentally as they are. Clearly the officer is airing on the side of caution. I would completely understand if someone is deemed a danger to himself or others, but that is deemed by a medical professional such as a psychiatrist, not a campus police officer, or am I wrong about that?

I basically feel like I'm being told I'm not responsible enough to have possession of these firearms, on the grounds it is thought I have the potential to be a danger to others, by someone who does not have that authority, who is contradicting a medical professional who does have the authority to deem me as such. Its very distressing to me to be given that label of someone that could commit an atrocity by someone who has not even spoken to me and is not an acting medical professional. That is basically what this officer is indirectly saying. I literally catch and release bugs in my apartment, never been interested in killing an animal for sport, and would always try not to step on ants as a kid.

Truthfully if this is resolved the way the officer wants, my dad will come pick them up next week, who can then give them directly to me, and then I simply won't have them in my car anymore while attending school and leave them at a friends house where they are allowed.

But my current feeling is that my father shouldn't have to be a middle man for this situation. The officer is acting to, in a way of words and pardon my French, cover the ass of the school, so that in the hypothetical situation I do something, he can say my parents gave me the guns back, not the school. I just want to know if he has the legal right to make that decision when I have been cleared by medical professionals to not be a danger to myself or others.
In what state is the school? Maryland?

It might be that the guns are being held not only because the school has concerns about your mental health but also because the police might be trying to determine if laws were violated and, if so, whether to charge you with a crime (where the guns could be released to the police).

You are in an unfortunate position but I can understand the actions taken so far by the school. You will want an attorney if the police charge you with a crime and you should speak with an attorney in your area now to see if there is a way for you to regain possession of your guns. I personally think you are better off without them but that is a personal opinion only.

Good luck.
 
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blueangel42

Junior Member
In what state is the school? Maryland?

It might be that the guns are being held not only because the school has concerns about your mental health but also because the police might be trying to determine if laws were violated and, if so, whether to charge you with a crime (where the guns could be released to the police).

You are in an unfortunate position but I can understand the actions taken so far by the school. You will want an attorney if the police charge you with a crime and you should speak with an attorney in your area now to see if there is a way for you to regain possession of your guns. I personally think you are better off without them but that is a personal opinion only.

Good luck.
Yes I am in Maryland:
Well that has sufficiently scared me. But if this officer is going to go back on his word that my parents can come pick them up today, which he told my mom verbatim today, then he's flat out lied to us. As for my school, I have been in talks with Student Affairs and I doubt I'll be expelled. The Dean of Student Affairs told me we were going to make sure I walk this May as I'm a senior, and I'm meeting with one of his staff members tomorrow to clear things up and get reinstated, hopefully the day after tomorrow.

Maryland state lets college schools decide their policy of concealed carry weapons. Now, I was not carrying them on my person, rather in my car, but I know Frostburg State University in Western Maryland allows on-campus students (im off-campus) to store their weapons in the on-campus police station and allows them to sign them in and out. I attempted to do something like this months ago reaching out to our city's police commissioner asking if I can have my weapons stored at the station; he referred me to someone else who can help me out but they never got back to me and I hit a dead end. My point of saying this is that I don't think the DA is filling charges as MD is one of the states that leaves it up to the college to determine their firearms policy:

"In 23 states the decision to ban or allow concealed carry weapons on campuses is made by each college or university individually: Alabama, Alaska, Arizona, Connecticut, Delaware, Hawaii, Indiana, Iowa, Kentucky, Maine, Maryland, Minnesota, Montana, New Hampshire, Ohio, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Dakota, Vermont, Virginia, Washington and West Virginia."\

Source: http://www.ncsl.org/research/educati...-overview.aspx

OR am I wrong and should I continue fretting
 
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blueangel42

Junior Member
Here is a link to the Maryland Code, Criminal Law, Title 4, Weapons Crimes. See section 4-102, deadly weapons on school property:

http://www.mtwashingtonrg.org/legislative/Code_of_Maryland_2016.pdf

Whether any charge will be filed is a question mark but it appears that the school is taking every precaution, not only for your safety, blueangel, but for the safety of others.


(I chuckled when I read FlyingRon's phrasing :))
Thank you for the link Quincy. I totally understand the precautions of obtaining the weapons before I was released. While I dispute that the choice to send me to the ER was the correct course of action and maintain it was an overreaction that did absolutely nothing to help me and instead succeeded in getting me suspended temporarily and embarrassed in front of my peers -- I don't dispute that until I was released by the ER as not a danger to anyone, the policy of taking the weapons is not at fault. I understand why there is a policy to remove weapons when someone is being sent for a psyc eval. But after it was determined I was not a danger to myself or others by 2 independent medical doctors, one the on staff ER doc and another an on-call psychiatrist after being interviewed by a behavioral therapist, that's where it should have ended.

My issue is that 4 hours after arriving, I was deemed to clearly not be a danger to myself or others by the psychiatrist on call and ER doctor, released the same day, told by officers taking me back the only reason I can't get my weapons back is because the guy with authority to open the safe they are in is away now on vacation, and now that he's back and knows the situation, is telling us I can't have them because he disagrees with the medical professionals opinion's, and will rather only give them to my parents. Like I said earlier, if this is resolved the way the officer wants, my dad will come pick them up next week, who can then give them directly to me, and then I simply won't have them in my car anymore. I can respect this officers caution, but I don't see how he can legally make that decision to give them to adults of an adult who been deemed just as mentally stable as anyone else. If he can do that okay I'll take it, but I don't feel out of place inquiring if this is overstepping my rights as a firearm owner. My mom or dad shouldn't have to drive 2 hours to be a middle man
 

Mass_Shyster

Senior Member
Your story raises quite a few issues that are somewhat unclear and possibly ripe for (expensive) litigation.


The campus police somehow took possession of your guns. You don't describe how that possession took place. The 4th Amendment protects against unreasonable seizures, but the 2nd amendment does not contain the word "reasonable" or any variation of it. It simply states that the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. So while it may be quite reasonable for the police to take away your guns, doing so may still have infringed on your right to keep and bear arms. Flatly refusing to return them, after you've been "cleared", may also violate your right to due process.

but . . .

The fact that they will release them to your father almost makes this moot. I believe you would be foolish to litigate the situation when you already have a cheaper and faster alternative.

If you insist in litigating, I suggest you contact the Second Amendment Foundation (SAF) and see if there's an attorney in your area willing to take up your cause. I don't know if they're looking to take up this issue at this time.

One last point - if this is a private college, and the campus police are NOT state actors, you'll find your case will go nowhere fast. The Bill of Rights protects against public, not private, actors.
 
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