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Community/User-Created online video game content

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Chaboss

Junior Member
What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Washington

Just to briefly give some background, I have always played turn-based strategy games like the Civilization series, Alpha Centauri, Galactic Civilizations, and many others, but lately I have grown tired of everything the industry has to offer, none of it is good enough. I've become too snooty, my standards impossibly high. A chess player locked in a warehouse full of only checker boards and pieces. Civilization 5, the latest version, is awful, a huge step down in gameplay quality. My faith in the commercial industry to produce the kind of game I want has gone to below 0.

So I've decided to design my own game, and one day have it programmed into a low-budget production, maybe even make a small commercial release out of it. I know I can handle the design portion of it, that's not a problem. And once the design is flawlessly, immaculately documented out, describing every last nut and bolt in the game, programming does cost alot, but it can be outsourced (to India, China, Brazil, etc) and thus limited to the tens of thousands of dollars range, making it feasible for a small independent entrepreneur like myself to eventually contract out.

Now, graphics, on the other hand, that can be costly to do, and this is where the copyright questions comes into play...

I wouldn't need the game to boast the latest eye-popping 3D graphics, this is a turn-based strategy game after all (think a gigantic chess board with thousands of squares instead of chess's 64, representing the entire world, continents, oceans, etc and many land/sea/air unit pieces moving on it turn by turn). Luckily, or not, depending on copyright law, there has always been tons of community/user-generated content made for every version of Civilization. Civilization 3 is the version I'm aiming to emulate graphically with my game, just because it was simple and yet graphically pleasing, with small but fully moving/animated 3D units and attractive landscapes, so let's make that the case example.

There are sites like Civfanatics.com, NOT official game sites or owned by Firaxis games who originally made Civilization 3, where users in the "Civ" community have hand-made their own graphics for virtually everything in the game, usually for special historical scenarios (i.e., WWII, feudal Japan, etc) but sometimes just as standalone graphics resources for anybody to use as they please. These graphics include excellent original terrain, units, cities, special effects, everything, basically replacing all the original graphics of the original game. These graphics and the scenarios/"mods" that they come in are all free to download and play using the original commercial game (Civilization 3) which they run off of. Most if not all of these content creators working for free on their spare time have NOT directly copyrighted their work, aside from any automatic intellectual property laws that may be in place the instant they create anything.

So my actual questions involve the ownership and usability of these essentially "free-source" graphics resources, which were made for a specific commercial game but also stand alone on their own right, and the feasibility of someone like me using them freely for my separate and unaffiliated game production:

1. Do the original creators of these graphics, who made them on their home PCs then submitted them for free download off the internet for the whole Civ community to freely use and enjoy, "own" the content they made personally and directly, wherever it ends up, because of automatic intellectual property laws somehow, even if they never actually copyrighted any of their work?

2. Does the video game company (Firaxis) who originally made the game (Civilization 3) for which all of these extra graphics were made to be played on, somehow hold some level of protection on all user-made graphics even if none of it is included in any version of their official releases, expansions, etc?

3. Do websites (such as Civfanatics.com) where many of these graphics and scenarios are submitted and available to download from, hold some sort of protection over user-made graphics, simply because they were the first (or one of) the sites that the users submitted the work to, without actually ever "giving" or transferring ownership of said content to these sites either intentionally or implicitly?

4. OR, (and hopefully), because all of this extra free-source content was made with the intention of being played on using the engine of a copyrighted commercial game, but was made individually and freely dispensed by users who are mainly not concerned with money or copyrights, could they be downloaded, modified, used and otherwise freely integrated into a separate and totally unnaffiliated commercial game product of my own, as free resources, without any legal repercussion?

5. And, lastly, if these resources were free to use, would I need the written/signed consent of each actual individual creator for each specific piece of graphical content (i.e., these 10 units by Mr. A, those 5 landscape tiles by Mr. B, etc) that I used, or did that content become public domain available for anyone to use however they wished the minute they were submitted for free download without direct and official copyright protection?

This is all assuming, of course, that if it were possible to do so, in my final game absolutely ZERO of the original Civilization 3's graphics would be used in any way shape or form, even if highly modified, ONLY user-made, 100% original, made-from-scratch graphical material.

I would appreciate any and all feedback on these questions, but of course the most substantiative and authoritative the answers the better, so that I have an accurate idea of how to proceed and what to plan for during game production.

Thanks!
 


FlyingRon

Senior Member
The creators of the graphics gave them to the CIV community. They didn't give them to you to create your own clone game and profit off their work. You'll need permission.

You'll darned better be sure you're not running afoul of any trademarks from the original game.
 

Chaboss

Junior Member
The creators of the graphics gave them to the CIV community. They didn't give them to you to create your own clone game and profit off their work.
Yes, I realize that, but this isn't a moral issue. Personally, I have no moral scrupples whatsoever in taking those already-free graphics to make a far superior Civilization-like game which I know all Civ fans everywhere will rejoice to play, even those who originally may have made some of the graphics in it, if I can be allowed to use them. So this is strictly a legal question. My potential profiting from it is not part of the equation. And if this is still America, me legally producing an entertainment product of a highly intelligent caliber that potentially millions can buy and enjoy, and thereby profiting from it a little as a just reward, is one of the great things that this great country of ours allows me the privilege to do.

And also, I think you missed the entire point behind the motivation of my endeavor. The last thing I want to do is create a "clone" of the garbage that is already out there. And even if in the unlikely scenario that I actually pull this off eventually and even get rich off of it, money is and always will be the last motivator to doing this. Again, just to be clear, I want (and can and will) design a revolutionary, groundbreaking new Civ-like game experience. I want to obsolete, no, I want to kill, I want to ruthlessly murder the current Civilization games, I want to make Sid Meier look like the geriatric, bygone founder of the genre, who deserves respect for making the first of its kind decades ago, but who unmistakably lost his age-addled game-designing marbles along the way.

And most of all I want to annihilate chess once and for all. I used to like chess, as a kid. But then as I grew up I saw the light. I got absorbed in Civ and forgot all about chess. Then one day, by chance, I was at my cousin's house, who was dating the CAL Berkeley chess captain at the time (because chess-club college dudes get all the chicks...), and we never liked each other, and he challenged me to a game of chess, thinking to somehow intellectually smite me (which he was always trying to do, with everyone, which is probably why nobody in our family liked the guy). He was so focused on the game too, the poor guy. I beat him in about 20 minutes flat without even much attrition to my pieces. If I remember correctly, I started massing all my pieces in the center of the board very defensively, letting him take a few pawns here and there while he spread out around me in a surrounding crescent, thinking he was taking over, then in a couple moves my rooks were free and swept the sides from underneath him, he didn't even see it coming. He probably never learned that little move in the precious 'chess literature' of his. Bah! Lemmings. Learn to think creatively and strategize more shrewdly, then come back to me. He asked me who I play with, assuming of course that I must be actively playing chess somewhere. I said "nobody, I haven't played chess in years. I do, however, play Civ multiplayer online. It's a little harder than this."

Bobby Fisher was one of the greatest players of all time only HALF because of sheer talent... the other half was memorization. He was famous for memorizing every strategy and counter-strategy dating back hundreds of years, chess literature was his Bible and his Koran. Well, you can't do that in a true game of Civ, the combinations of units, moves, terrains and situations are infinite as far as any human mind is concerned. It's inherently a deeper, tougher game, it just hasn't been brought out in the right platform yet. I want my game to be so advanced in terms of its strategic depth and intensity that it makes any chess players still lingering in the world after this game comes out to be seen and scolded as kindergarten-trotting, candyland-playing wimps too afraid to take the pacifier out of their mouths and leave the sandbox in order to play a real strategy game with the other big boys. And I will do just that, even if I have to learn 3D animation and design every last graphics file myself.

"Clone" huh. Thanks for the benefit of the doubt in your assumption there...

You'll need permission.
Well, ok... but what kind of permission? And in what form? From whom? What are the legal implications? Who holds rights? And what kind of rights?...

You'll darned better be sure you're not running afoul of any trademarks from the original game.
Thanks, I don't mean to sound too sarcastic because I do appreciate your advice, but you're right. I should probably go seek very specific advice in a legal forum... ;)
 
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quincy

Senior Member
Wow. I bet your expertise in the games of chess and Civilization makes you a real chick-magnet, huh? ;) :)

You are involving with your game plans copyright law, trademark law and, potentially, patent law, so your best course of action will be to go over all of your plans with an IP attorney in your area. Otherwise your low-budget production can result in high-budget legal expenses.

1. The original creators own the rights to their works. Works are automatically copyrighted upon creation.

2. The video game company that made Civilization can still potentially claim trademark, copyright and, perhaps, patent protections. What is not rights-protected are ideas. The expressions of these ideas, however, are legally protected.

3. Without a transfer of rights or a licensing of rights, those who created the works own the works. All derivatives are subject to protection under copyright law.

4. There can be legal repercussions.

5. Creative works available on the internet are not (necessarily or even generally) in the public domain. It is wise to assume that all creative works found on the internet are protected from unauthorized uses. Obtaining permission is always wise - and the permission you would need is from anyone who holds rights in the works.

Again, review your game's plan and all particulars with an attorney in your area. You may, indeed, wish to learn 3D animation and design every graphics file yourself (and avoid the use of the trademarked "Civilization" name for your game) in order to avoid one or more lawsuits. There are far too many legal issues here that need to be considered to give you specific advice in a forum setting such as this.
 
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Chaboss

Junior Member
Wow. I bet your expertise in the game of chess and Civilization makes you a real chick-magnet, huh? ;) :)
Oh yeah. As Mel Brooks would say, "Jump the Queen!" :p

2. The video game company that made Civilization can still potentially claim trademark, copyright and, perhaps, patent protections. What is not rights-protected are ideas. The expression of these ideas, however, are rights-protected.
Nah, no lawyer needed... I already suspected this was the case. I was just very, VERY optimistically hoping someone in the legal know would chime in and say, 'well, actually, it might be possible if...' but I knew it was a long shot to begin with.

Even if I were able to get a legitimate signed approval from every one of the content creators that I included in my game, which would run in the dozens if not the hundreds of individuals, I'm sure Firaxis (the original game company that made Civ 3) would find a way to sue and possibly win, on the hazy-at-best but convincing-in-a-courtroom legal logic that because they originally made Civilization 3, me making and profiting off of my own commercial game using graphics inspired and made specifically for their game infringes on one or several IP rights protection laws. I mean, I could just see it happening, in the internal crystal ball of my gut.

One of the reasons I know some hairy shnizz would go down, is that if I owned Firaxis and my company originally made Civ 3, suing some guy like me is exactly the first thing I would do, knowing I would probably win :D

Oh well, only a minor setback. It will cost me more in the end to create my own graphics, in both time and money, but it's still feasible. Ironically, what I'll probably end up doing, once I have the design document all finished, finalized and copyrighted, is to seek out some former Civ-content creators and offer them a business proposal: make graphics for this new game of mine according to the design specs, just like they did for the official Civilization games, with a large cash payment to be delivered upon release and subsequent sales success of the game. If they like the design and see potential, and they can be convinced that I have the funds and commitment to getting it programmed, debugged, packaged and distributed, maybe they will join up, not only out of passion for the genre but also in hopes of a big payday.

So there are still ways of getting good graphics on the cheap, it just means I'll have to be more creative about it...

Thanks, keep up the great site.
 

Zigner

Senior Member, Non-Attorney
What do the graphics matter?

The first turn-based strategy game I played used various characters (* & ^ % $ etc) to represent the various units on a monochrome monitor. I enjoyed that more than any I've played since ;)
 

quincy

Senior Member
You're welcome, Chaboss. :)

I agree (sort of) with Zigner, as it is the game play that will keep a user interested in playing the game - however it will be the graphics that will initially attract a new user to the game.

You may wish to consider art school students as a free source of graphics, by the way - instead of dollars or a percentage of profits in exchange for the graphic art, art students may be content with being credited as the source of the artwork. It could be a good addition to their portfolios. Bob Seger, for example, used University of Michigan music students as backup on one of his early albums in exchange for crediting them on the album cover.

I agree that a large or successful company will often have a large legal budget with attorneys who can intimidate pretty easily an ordinary individual into stopping any potentially infringing acts, even when a suit against the individual may have no legal merit (not that in your described situation a suit would have no legal merit ;)).

I wish you good luck with your game, Chaboss.
 

Chaboss

Junior Member
What do the graphics matter?

The first turn-based strategy game I played used various characters (* & ^ % $ etc) to represent the various units on a monochrome monitor. I enjoyed that more than any I've played since ;)
You're welcome, Chaboss. :)

I agree (sort of) with Zigner, as it is the game play that will keep a user interested in playing the game - however it will be the graphics that will initially attract a new user to the game.
Yes, that is one reason why, attracting new gamers/customers, just enough so that they give the game a first try. I'm confident that upon entering the world they won't want to leave, but a house on Halloween with shuttered windows and no lights on scares ALL the kiddies away, no matter how good the candy.

The other reason is visual clarity, smoothness and comprehension. Meaning, a game with text character stand-ins for graphics, or even 2D drawings like the majority of strategy games in the early-to-mid 90's, may be technically playable, but the UI (user interface) and the level of immersion, two huge qualities that directly affect gameplay, take a hit as a result.

In Civilization terms, if you see a simple 2D drawing of a static, unmoving archer unit standing on a small square with a forest drawing, you know right away, "Ok, that's an archer belonging to so and so nation in a forest square." But other information beyond that, highly valuable in a deep strategy war game where details matter, won't be readily available at a glance. Is that archer fortified? Is it sleeping? What direction was it moving when it was discovered it? Does it have any upgrades? Is a general with it in the same square? Some of this additional tactical info might be available somewhere (others like movement direction may never be), but at the cost of having to right-click on the unit, read a separate info menu that pops up, etc.

One of the biggest enhancements that Civilization 3 brought about with its animated 3D units and effects, however small and simple, as compared to the static 2D drawings of Civilization 2 was the feeling of smoothness in gameplay and immersion, because all of a sudden now so much more information was readily visible at all times, just from looking at the units in their shifting states on the map. You didn't need to expend extra time, effort and annoyance to further investigate or have to guess basic info that you should know by default.

So, my game would definitely need to utilize this basic visual advantage, but of course the minimum level of graphical fidelity will do. I don't need huge photo-realistic clouds swirling above the map to stand in for the climate, or to have the player be able to zoom in so far as to scrutinize whether the archers shaved that morning or not.

You may wish to consider art school students as a free source of graphics, by the way - instead of dollars or a percentage of profits in exchange for the graphic art, art students may be content with being credited as the source of the artwork. It could be a good addition to their portfolios. Bob Seger, for example, used University of Michigan music students as backup on one of his early albums in exchange for crediting them on the album cover.
Wow. I never thought of that. Probably because I am so inherently greedy and selfish that it never occurred to me other human beings might willingly help in a project without any pay just for credit and practice. :D

And also, the graphics would be of a simple-enough level of resolution and detail that even a student with basic 3D animation knowledge would be able to make one unit at a time, or one terrain tile at a time, etc. That's the beauty of it from a production standpoint, is that because the game is similar to chess there is hardly any gameplay or visual component that is bigger than a single square, even though some squares do have to be designed to blend in with each other (such as oceans, rolling grasslands, etc).

Thanks for the advice, again! :)
 

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