The downside of separation without the formalities

[befriend]

State: California

If a married couple self-prepares all the paperwork, agreements, etc. necessary for separation, signs and gets them notarized but does not file anything with the courts, it would save the court costs but is it just as effective as a full court separation (because after all, the papers were notarized implying that the couples signed the documents without any coercion)?

Our case is one in which we are amicably separating and have no disputes about how to settle the assets and income, and our children are already grown up.

The question assumes greater importance if we enter into divorce say a few years later and do not want to have disputes about the assets at that time.

Can someone throw some light please? Thank you for your help.

 

[LdiJ]

State: California

If a married couple self-prepares all the paperwork, agreements, etc. necessary for separation, signs and gets them notarized but does not file anything with the courts, it would save the court costs but is it just as effective as a full court separation (because after all, the papers were notarized implying that the couples signed the documents without any coercion)?

Our case is one in which we are amicably separating and have no disputes about how to settle the assets and income, and our children are already grown up.

The question assumes greater importance if we enter into divorce say a few years later and do not want to have disputes about the assets at that time.

Can someone throw some light please? Thank you for your help.

If you do not legally separate (by submitting your separation paperwork to the court and having it signed off on by a judge) then you do not suspend the marital community. Therefore, income would continue to be marital, asset appreciation would continue to be marital, and debts would continue to be marital. You would not be protected from each other's creditors.

Its a lot smarter to submit it to the court and have the judge sign off on it.

 

[HighwayMan]

You don't understand what a notarized signature is. The fact that it's notarized does not in any way mean that the person signing has a clue about what they're signing.

 

[befriend]

You don't understand what a notarized signature is. The fact that it's notarized does not in any way mean that the person signing has a clue about what they're signing.

Yes, I do understand what notarization means but the question is what the law says. For example, if the law says that it is the responsibility of the state to ensure that the signing parties understand what they are signing (say in the case of family law), then sure a court appearance makes sense. (But I doubt the law would say anything like that.) More likely: the courts are more willing to entertain a dispute or an objection from a signing party in case of notarization as compared to admitting a dispute/objection from a signing party who has the endorsement of a judge. I.e., disputes can be taken up in either case but the likelihood of prevailing (of the other side) is greater in the case where a judge has signed off on it.

The above appears true also because I spoke to the clerk at the window in the Self Help Center in Orange County, CA and asked if a court appearance is mandatory and her answer was "no" but it depends. Thus, if a judge signs off on an application for separation without a court appearance, that does not guarantee either that the signing parties understood what they were signing.

If you do not legally separate (by submitting your separation paperwork to the court and having it signed off on by a judge) then you do not suspend the marital community. Therefore, income would continue to be marital, asset appreciation would continue to be marital, and debts would continue to be marital. You would not be protected from each other's creditors.

Its a lot smarter to submit it to the court and have the judge sign off on it.

Thank you.


A general forum question: Should I start a new thread if I have another question that is not related to the subject heading of this thread (still within divorce/separation topic) or can I just post here?

 

[Zigner]

As a California notary, I can assure you that you don't know what a notarization of a signature (certificate of acknowledgment) means in this state. All I do is verify that it was you who signed it. It's not my job to try and figure out if you were coerced in to signing it. In fact, refusal to perform the notarial act is a crime in my state.

 

[befriend]

... All I do is verify that it was you who signed it. It's not my job to try and figure out if you were coerced in to signing it. ...

Yes, that is what I had also understood. But that is not the reason why a court needs to sign off on the separation papers (i.e. just because a notarization leaves open the possibility of coercion.)

If that were the case, then courts would need to sign off every single agreement that is ever signed, which is obviously not the case.

Like I said, the court's sign off helps because if a signing party later raises a dispute, it decreases the possibility (as compared to notarization) that the judge would admit that case.

 

[Just Blue]

A general forum question: Should I start a new thread if I have another question that is not related to the subject heading of this thread (still within divorce/separation topic) or can I just post here?

Thank You for asking this question...

Keep all questions related to this divorce on this thread.

Again...Thanks for asking.

Bambi

 

[befriend]

Unequal division of assets

CALIFORNIA:

Will the court sign off on separation papers in which a married couple agrees to unequally divide their assets that were acquired after their marriage?

(There can be several personal reasons for doing so which I won't elaborate here for brevity.)


Thank you!

 

[LdiJ]

CALIFORNIA:

Will the court sign off on separation papers in which a married couple agrees to unequally divide their assets that were acquired after their marriage?

(There can be several personal reasons for doing so which I won't elaborate here for brevity.)


Thank you!

Much depends on just how unequal things are. If the agreement were massively against public policy or down right illegal a judge would likely not sign off on it. If it were something relatively minor in the overall scope of things a judge would likely have no problem signing off on it.

So, are you trying to avoid court because you have manipulated your stbx into agreement to something massively unfair? Or, are you paranoid because its not perfectly equal and you are afraid a judge won't sign off on it?

Go get a consult with a local attorney to see what they have to say about what you want to agree to.

 

[befriend]

So, are you trying to avoid court because you have manipulated your stbx into agreement to something massively unfair? Or, are you paranoid because its not perfectly equal and you are afraid a judge won't sign off on it?

It is neither.

The reasons to avoid court are:
a) Separation/divorce is a difficult process in itself for any couple, and going to court makes it all the more painful and frightening for people who are not used to going to courts (unlike, for example, attorneys).

b) It obviously would save on costs and the hassle of the longer process (filling out forms, serving, etc.)

I have not manipulated anyone (don't know what "stbx" in your message means). A judge would be able to ask both of us in court whether anyone of us is signing against our inner wishes.

Go get a consult with a local attorney to see what they have to say about what you want to agree to.

Yes, if I don't get a satisfactory answer here, we might do that.

 

[Just Blue]

It is neither.

The reasons to avoid court are:
a) Separation/divorce is a difficult process in itself for any couple, and going to court makes it all the more painful and frightening for people who are not used to going to courts (unlike, for example, attorneys).

b) It obviously would save on costs and the hassle of the longer process (filling out forms, serving, etc.)

I have not manipulated anyone (don't know what "stbx" in your message means). A judge would be able to ask both of us in court whether anyone of us is signing against our inner wishes.





Yes, if I don't get a satisfactory answer here, we might do that.

STBX = Soon To Be Ex.

 

[Zigner]

Yes, if I don't get a satisfactory answer here, we might do that.

I am not clear on what you mean by this. Does this mean that you are only going to listen to what you are told her if it agrees with what you want to hear? If so, then please don't waste any more time (yours or ours) here.

 

[befriend]

Does this mean that you are only going to listen to what you are told her if it agrees with what you want to hear?

No ... obviously! Why would anyone in their right mind want to do that!! At least, you should assume that people you don't know whom you meet for the first time on the net are well intentioned and sane, before you make offensive and unfriendly statements like "...please don't waste any more time (yours or ours) here."


You may be a Notary but you don't have the commonsense that nobody wants to waste their own time, especially those who take the time to register, write their questions properly and are replying decently. In fact, you are the one who wasted your own and others' time by posting the irrelevant reply on why a court sign off helps as opposed to notarization (despite you being a notary and despite the fact that I had clarified in the post before why it helps)!

 

[Zigner]

No ... obviously! Why would anyone in their right mind want to do that!! At least, you should assume that people you don't know whom you meet for the first time on the net are well intentioned and sane, before you make offensive and unfriendly statements like "...please don't waste any more time (yours or ours) here."


You may be a Notary but you don't have the commonsense that nobody wants to waste their own time, especially those who take the time to register, write their questions properly and are replying decently. In fact, you are the one who wasted your own and others' time by posting the irrelevant reply on why a court sign off helps as opposed to notarization (despite you being a notary and despite the fact that I had clarified in the post before why it helps)!

You've been told several times that a notarization doesn't help. You don't want to hear it, so you ignore it...it's just not a satisfactory statement for you.

You are wasting time here...yours and ours. Go talk to an attorney. Pay for the advice, and like it or not. That's not offensive, and I'm not your friend.

 

[befriend]

You've been told several times that a notarization doesn't help. You don't want to hear it, so you ignore it...

You are dreaming or more likely, you can't understand plain English. I had welcomed the first responder who said notarization is not as effective (if you read the thanks I said to that person).

You are wasting time here...yours and ours. Go talk to an attorney. Pay for the advice, and like it or not. That's not offensive, and I'm not your friend.

I will ignore further posts from YOU as you appear to just want to increase your post count without regard to the quality of your posts. Besides, you have a hot mind for no reason.