Bank error in your favor - Collect $200

[GregG]

thoughts

Depends. I think if you use the money, the bank will probably send you a written notice advising you of the error. They will give you probablay 30 days to correct the problem or take it to collection. If you correct the problem by paying the amount requested no harm done. It also depends on the amount. $100 bank won't go overboard. $15K They will probably file charges on you if the money is not recovered in a specific amount of time.

Usually you have no rights with banks. I think the SOL for collecting that money is 7 years.
Its probably in the paperwork that you signed when opening the account they can go back as far as they need.. I think the ATM transaction SOL is 6 months. That's what the person at my bank told me when a grocery store ATM took three months to clear my account.

I think legally the bank will need to notify you in writing of the error and give you a period of time to correct the problem. Filing criminal charges is the last resort a bank will probably take. If you don't comply to the written terms. The bank will probably consider sending it to collection or consider legal action.

 

[moburkes]

I also think its homework, but OP, I mean DOPE, didn't ask for opinions.

 

[justadope]

OP makes his state of mind (yippeeee, I got money I shouldn't have) clear as well as his act (using the money).

Shrug, this guy does NOT sound like he wants legal advice, rather, he wants someone to give him the answer that he wants to hear.

Gee zinger, ALL I've been asking for is legal advice. Something that is rather different from moralizing or making unsubstantiated assertions regarding the probability of the bank correcting their error.

You still can't even get the situation right. I haven't gotten any money I shouldn't have.

The bank simply hasn't bothered to bill me for the correct amount. They didn't "give" me anything I shouldn't have gotten, they just didn't "take" what they were entitled to take.

See the difference? Probably not.

 

[justadope]

The law is a funny thing. Many people think that those knowledgeable in the law give answers, while most who have some knowledge ask questions and make arguments.

Criminal law tends to have two parts, the act and the mental state. The mental state is often the hardest to prove. Thanks to your question, if we find some act which would be a crime when combined with your deliberate, intentional state of mind, we have a completed crime.

Of course, not telling the bank you have some money of theirs is probably not a crime as there is no act. I'm not sure you have a duty to tell the bank under AZ statutes. But, now *my* question.

How are you going to get it out?

I intend on doing whatever I wish with the savings account I opened. I intend on allowing the bank to debit my checking account for the proper amount any time they wish as long as they are legally entitled to do so.

The act of writing a check or a withdrawal slip changes things. You know the money is not yours. You've said as much.

To the contrary, I've said nothing of the sort. I've made it clear that the funds in the savings account are mine. I am free to do as I wish with them. The savings account was funded with the correct amount. There was no error in it's opening. It was opened correctly and for the proper amount.

Likewise the funds in my checking account are mine. The bank is welcome to process a debit against my checking account but up until they do the funds are mine to do with as I wish. Indeed I can draw my checking account balance down to zero at any time as I have a sufficient line of credit backing my checking account to cover the portion the bank did not debit.

That's too bad for you as that is the hard part to prove--what you know. Now, when you do the act to get the money, the bank may argue it was in your care and then it would be embezzlement.

I can't embezzle from myself, the funds in the savings account are mine. The account was properly opened and in the proper amount. It is no different than if I gave a good check to the bank to open the account and they proceeded to put the check in a drawer. I am not obligated to wait to withdraw funds from the account until they cash the check. The bank cannot argue I have stolen something because they have failed to cash my check. I am only obligated to make sure the check is good up until such point in time as the law allows me to ignore any demands to pay it.

Or, it could be a simple fraud. In Arizona, any person who, pursuant to a scheme or artifice to defraud, knowingly obtains any benefit by means of false or fraudulent pretenses, representations, promises or material omissions is guilty of a class 2 felony. We could look farther, but will find some larceny involved.

There is no scheme here. There is only a bank which has not properly debited my checking account. They are free to do so at any time providing they retain the legal right to do so. Let's say you buy a car and pay with a credit card. You proceed to use the car but the charge is never processed by the car dealer thru no fault or action of your own. The car dealer has been careless, you have not committed fraud. The law allows the car dealer a certain period of time to correct the mistake, after that the dealer is SOL.

I'll ignore your clearly wrong suggestion that the funds in the savings account become income the day I withdraw them and go with the more reasonable assumption that it only becomes income when the bank loses the legal right to correct its error.

 

[Goodfella]

No matter how you want to say it, someone is out 99 bucks. Probably some teller or bank employee who made an honest mistake. When they counted the til at the end of the day, the hapless bank employee probably had the amount deducted from his paycheck, or fired, or both.

So...I don't see the point of your question, other than to try to impress everyone with what clearly amounts to stealing.

Sleep well

 

[ecmst12]

Besides, doesn't the statute of limitations not START running until the bank discovers the error?

 

[tranquility]

Please review the concept of "constructive receipt" regarding tax law.

If you have come to the legal conclusion the funds in the accounts are yours, why are you talking about taxes? Why are you worried about committing a crime? Why can the bank remove the funds when they find out?

 

[justadope]

No matter how you want to say it, someone is out 99 bucks. Probably some teller or bank employee who made an honest mistake. When they counted the til at the end of the day, the hapless bank employee probably had the amount deducted from his paycheck, or fired, or both.

So...I don't see the point of your question, other than to try to impress everyone with what clearly amounts to stealing.

Sleep well

Another moralist who didn't even bother to read the original post. The transaction was performed online, there was no teller and no till being counted at the end of the day and therefore no employee having anything deducted from their paycheck. If the bank spots the error then they obviously, if yiou had read my original post, can correct the error if they do so in a timely manner.

As for the point of my question, I want to know when the bank is no longer legally entitled to correct their mistake. Seems like a reasonable question, I see frequent questions here involving people wanting to know how long they have to correct the bank's mistake, I just want to know how long the bank has.

BTW, what have I stolen? It's a question I keep asking those who throw out that unfounded charge and they just can't seem to come up with an answer.

 

[Zigner]

Another moralist who didn't even bother to read the original post. The transaction was performed online, there was no teller and no till being counted at the end of the day and therefore no employee having anything deducted from their paycheck. If the bank spots the error then they obviously, if yiou had read my original post, can correct the error if they do so in a timely manner.

As for the point of my question, I want to know when the bank is no longer legally entitled to correct their mistake. Seems like a reasonable question, I see frequent questions here involving people wanting to know how long they have to correct the bank's mistake, I just want to know how long the bank has.

BTW, what have I stolen? It's a question I keep asking those who throw out that unfounded charge and they just can't seem to come up with an answer.

Are you stupid or just a dope?
You are STEALING $99 from the bank who posted $100 to your account but only received $1 from your other account.

I'm out - either this guy is more dense than lead, or this is a joke.

 

[justadope]

Please review the concept of "constructive receipt" regarding tax law.

Umm, I think you are referring to the constructive receipt of INCOME and not the constructive reciept of money you withdraw from your savings account.

The money in the savings account isn't income.

The income aspects arises from the extinguishing of the bank's claim against funds in my checking account, a sort of cancellation of debt.

If you have come to the legal conclusion the funds in the accounts are yours, why are you talking about taxes?

Simple, while the funds in the account are mine the bank can correct it's error and issue a debit against my checking account. I don't dispute that they can do so, up until some point in time when the law says they no longer may take such steps to correct their mistake.

I've given you a perfect analogy in the past. If I open a savings account with a paper check and the bank mistakenly puts the check in a desk drawer that does not mean that the funds in the savings account are not mine and it does not mean the funds in my checking account are not mine. It also doesn't mean I have income should I withdraw funds from the checking account. At some point the bank no longer has a legal right to force me to honor that check and at that point I would have reportable income.

Why are you worried about committing a crime? Why can the bank remove the funds when they find out?

I'm not worried about committing a crime, I've never asked if I'm committing a crime because I'm not.

Of course the bank can remove the funds from my checking account if they realize they have not debited the proper amount. That is how they would correct their mistake. However, at some point in time the law would not allow them to do so.

They have no reason to remove the funds from the savings account as that would not correct the mistake and I since the funds won't be in the savings account after I withdraw them that won't be an option.

Thus my LEGAL question, at what point is the bank no longer legally entitled to correct it's mistake. It's a simple question which most posters have chosen to ignore as they seem to think this is a moralizing forum instead of a legal forum.

 

[justadope]

Besides, doesn't the statute of limitations not START running until the bank discovers the error?

I don't see any language like that in the Arizona Revised Statutes.

It says three years after the cause of action (the mistake) accrues and not afterwards.

ARS 12-543

 

[justadope]

Are you stupid or just a dope?
You are STEALING $99 from the bank who posted $100 to your account but only received $1 from your other account.

I'm out - either this guy is more dense than lead, or this is a joke.

It's the bank's responsibility to withdraw the proper amount of money from my checking account to fund my new savings account. You even assured me they eventually would do so.

My new savings account was properly opened and I am entitled to use the funds in it. Is that not clear to you? The bank is perfectly entitled to correct their mistake and I'm not doing anything that would prevent them from doing so.

I filled up my gas tank this morning, I paid with a credit card. Am I stealing the gas if the gas station doesn't process my charge card? Nope. Not at all. Should I not use the gas until I've checked and made sure the charge has properly hit my account? Nope, that would be absurd.

I deposited a check into another savings account this morning. Am I stealing if I withdraw the money and the bank loses my check and never processes it? Nope. Not at all. Should I wait until the check clears before withdrawing the money, nope, not my responsibility.

I bought a microwave oven at Best Buy and gave them a check. Am I stealing the microwave oven if Best Buy never bothers to cash the check? Nope, of course not.

The great thing about the law is it requires more than some yahoo on a message board merely asserting that someone has stolen something.

BTW, for the person who claimed the statute of limitations doesn't start to run until the bank discovers the mistake, I don't think so. The three years starts to run when the bank is in possession of all the facts, which they are.

 

[justadope]

Hey zinger, when are you going to address these similar situations?

1) I pump $50 of gas and pay with a credit card. A week later I notice that they only charged my account $5. Did I steal the gas? Am I a criminal if I continue driving knowing that they haven't charged my account yet for the other $45?

2) I get online and purchase a roundtrip ticket from Southwest Airlines and pay with a direct debit to my checking account in the amount of $460. Two weeks later as I pack for my trip I notice the debit that hit my account was only for $46. Am I a criminal if I take the flight? Will they take me off the flight in leg irons if they realize they made a mistake and didn't debit my account for the proper amount?

Frankly I'm rather amused at the poor level of "legal" advice handed out on this forum. A lot of moralizing that had nothing to do with the law, some obviously bad tax advice and the impression that many people didn't even read the original post with any degree of understanding.

Oh well. I guess that's why it's free advice and I guess I got what I paid for.

 

[ecmst12]

1) I pump $50 of gas and pay with a credit card. A week later I notice that they only charged my account $5. Did I steal the gas? Am I a criminal if I continue driving knowing that they haven't charged my account yet for the other $45?

For one thing, this is a different situation since the problem was likely with the vendor that you bought the gas from and not the bank. But the outcome will be the same - if you spend the other $45 so that when (not if) the rest of the charge goes through there is not enough money to cover it, the bank is still going to charge you an overdraft fee, regardless of how much time elapsed since you made the purchase.

If you KNOW that the bank made an error in not deducting money from your account, and you don't call them and tell them, that's dishonest. It may not be criminal, but it's certainly unethical.

 

[ISUE4YOU2]

Some people need to learn the hard and costly way. Tell them about the error; do the right thing.