being denied visitation with my daughter

[wileybunch]

That was a little harsh Proud Parent. Wileybunch, thanks for putting it in a softer mannerand I will take your advice about requesting counseling with Dad. It is very difficult for me in this position not to become emotional and your words were much kinder but got the same point across. I do realize that my relationship with my daughter has faltered due to my "not wanting her to hurt" attitude, however, in my defense, I thought it was a phase.

Well, I don't think proud_parent was too harsh -- she's telling it to you from a child's perspective. I do the same thing with my DH. I use the term "warrior" to describe his ex and how children feel safe with a "warrior". She's always up to something so is again at this time and we had that talk again last night and he angrily said to me, "Stop saying that!" as if I was the bad guy for reminding him about how it goes, but I said, no, that's the reality, she is the warrior and you cannot let her intimidate you, she does not have the kids' best interests in mind, so if you give up, who will? That's really the bottom line proud_parent was trying to get across, not to be "mean" to you, but to help you to see the harsh reality from your DD's perspective.

Legal battles are not all won in the courtroom. There are plenty of kids who say OK, I'll go if I'm forced, but dig their heels in and act miserable, either b/c of their own personality or generous alienation efforts by a parent or both. It's messy and it's hard. It can make you feel like your efforts are in vain. But, it is worth it knowing if nothing else that you did your best to take your sacred responsibility to parent seriously. Whether the child welcomes that in is ultimately their choice and their loss if they don't. Everyone has to live and learn.

 

[Isis1]

That was a little harsh Proud Parent. Wileybunch, thanks for putting it in a softer mannerand I will take your advice about requesting counseling with Dad. It is very difficult for me in this position not to become emotional and your words were much kinder but got the same point across. I do realize that my relationship with my daughter has faltered due to my "not wanting her to hurt" attitude, however, in my defense, I thought it was a phase.

I have custody of my oldest daughter, we have had our moments but our relationship is sound and to her, I am the warrior parent. Although her father is now in the picture I am still the only source she considers for stability.

I did stand up for myself with my youngest daughters father. I demanded my time, however, after driving over there, they would not be home and would not answer there phones until my time had passed then would apologize and say they forgot or that their plans were set in stone. This happened on 4 different occassions. They would also coach her to behave poorly, regardless of consequence from me (and there were consequences), and told her to tell me that was the way she was going to act every time I got her when she wanted to do something else. She slipped up and told my oldest daughter of this last plan who quickly told me. When I confronted them about it, they lied and my youngest daughter stood there and lied to me with them.

I visit her school at the beginning of each year to meet her teachers. I am looked at with confusion because her new teachers have been told by my daughters dad and step mother that her step mother is her real mother. They get to know me over the year through emails and phone conversations then it starts all over again the next year. They even went as far as to take my half of my daughters last name out of her name when enrolling. This is something else I correct every year. The school doesn't even check it againest her birth certificate until I mention it.

There are walls every where for me, but......I do climb over them. One by one. This seems to have neither worsened or bettered my relationship with my daughter.

I just keep calling her, telling her how much I love her and that I can't wait to see her again. She replies with, "Why are you trying to make me feel quilty?" Even though it hurts to hear when I know no such thing is happening, I just keep telling her hoping to break through that shell.

What I am trying to say is, I never quit my daughter, I NEVER WILL quit my daughter, I will persue her until the end of time. She is my air. Without her in my life, I don't think I could breath. My love runs way to deep to give up. "Staying in it", is not a problem.

I AM prepared to do what is necessary to obtain enforceable visitation orders?
I AM prepared to do what is necessary to ensure that the court enforces those orders?
I AM prepared to do what is necessary to repair my relationship with my daughter?
I WILL NEVER admit that I consented to become alienated from my child by not doing all of the above sooner?

Because that would be a lie. I never consented to being alienated from my child. The progression of denied visitation was quick were are talking about a 9 month period and we did not take it to court because we did not want our child to be draged through that process. His views have apparently changed, otherwise I would not be having to do this. Why would I make a snap judgement about someone with whom I have had a good, working relationship with for the previous 10 1/2 years. I gave him time to change his ways and that was it.

Just because someone gets in their car and begins to drive does not mean that they consented to be killed in the wreck caused by a drunk driver.

Other posters, Please do not allow harsh words and idol assumptions from people who know nothing about you other than what you have posted to bring you down. Stand up for yourselves and truly good and helpful people will realize their error and will know that their behavior is not acceptable. If it continues, look at the good advice only.

I am not a careless parent and never have been Proud_Parent. Are you a Perfect_Parent? If so, can I borrow the handbook to raising children that God gave you? You don't know how hard I have been fighting so don't make that assumption about me. And, if it wasn't intentional, realize that people have emotions and please be more careful in your wording next time. People do not post because they are bored, they post because they are in those situations and those situation are already putting enough stress on them. Don't add to it.

from one mother who was a NCP at one time, you really need to get with reality. that wasn't harsh. wait till you get in front of a judge. it gets worse. the last judge almost made me cry. and she wasn't yelling at me. she was yelling at the ex for being an idiot. go sit in on a few family cases. it's gets real "mean" in there.

 

[adinicholson]

Am I prepared to admit that I consented to become alienated from my child by not doing all of the above sooner?

Those are Proud_Parent's words. That implies that am a careless parent who was just to lazy to do anything thing about it and I don't appreciate it. That was not from a childs perspective, that was from her perspective.

Before the manipulation from her father and step-mother began, my daughter had asked if she could come and live with me. This was nine moths ago. I told her to think on it for a few weeks and discuss it with her father and if she still wanted to, she was more than welcome. My next weekend was the first one that they weren't there when I came at the scheduled time to get her for my time.

My daughter is not a bad kid. My daughter has been influenced by two people who don't want her to leave and I am sure it is because they love her and don't want her to go. Regardless, it is wrong and to prevent it from happening again, I am filing. I believe that once the court issues a judgement, they will have no power anymore for fear of contempt and there will be no benefit in poisioning my daughters mind any longer. although it may continue, I will be able to be there to counteract it. Things due to lack of fuel, will go back to the way they were, although it may take some time. I won't hold a grudge so she will see that it is one sided.

 

[stealth2]

Before the manipulation from her father and step-mother began, my daughter had asked if she could come and live with me. This was nine moths ago. I told her to think on it for a few weeks and discuss it with her father and if she still wanted to, she was more than welcome.

Do you want to know what the *appropriate* answer to your daughter would have been? 'Cause yours wasn't it!

 

[proud_parent]

That was a little harsh Proud Parent.

Yes, it was a little harsh. But spot on. You are of course free both to disagree and to pay for the advice that you prefer.

You got excellent LEGAL advice from an attorney multiple times in this thread. Yet you returned several times not merely with questions, but also with justifications and excuses -- the type that the judge who hears your petition will be less likely to entertain than we poor, bored souls in cyberspace.

If you were upset by my commentary, you have several choices, among them: 1) Retreat in defeat and do nothing. 2) Feel angry but direct your efforts toward explaining to a forum full of strangers, your child, or the judge WHY you did not in eleven years petition the court to establish your rights. 3) Channel your righteous indignation toward pursuing legal action. Now, to establish enforceable orders. And again, when your ex ignores the orders. And each and every time those orders are ignored, for as long as is necessary.

By the way, I'm certainly not a perfect parent, nor do I ever expect to become one -- but it won't be for lack of effort. As for the handbook God gave me, you can pick one up in any book store. (I stick with the New American Bible, English translation myself.) To my knowledge, He did not leave additional parenting instructions... I guess he trusted that with the intellect, free will, and blessing of children He gave us, we would be responsible to figure it out.

 

[wileybunch]

Those are Proud_Parent's words. That implies that am a careless parent who was just to lazy to do anything thing about it and I don't appreciate it. That was not from a childs perspective, that was from her perspective.

But, that is the truth. I have said similar stark reality things to my DH, as well. It's a sin of omission vs. commission sorta thing. In reality, the judge would also say the same sorta thing. While my DH was trying to protect his children from what their mother would do to them if he'd taken her back to court again sooner, the judge said that b/c it had gone on for so long, in some ways he accommodated the violations. He wasn't trying to be a jerk and while he was a rough gruff judge that seared the hair off her attorney's head and gave her some harsh words directly, as well, he actually said that very softly and understandingly to my DH, nevertheless, it was true. If you don't act to stop something, you are allowing it. That's all proud_parent was trying to say and put the responsibility for action back into your hands where it belongs. No excuses. Don't get caught up on feeling like you're being attacked personally.

 

[adinicholson]

I have sat in on them, I was in the fight for custody for my oldest daughter. I won. I did not cry because I had a good defence and he, as well as the judge new right from wrong.
I was there when my mother fought for custody of my little sister. The judge did make her cry with a hypathetical. But, She prevailed. Because she was the best parent for the job and everyone knew it.

My daughters dad and step-mother have poisoned her against me. I do have proof. I have recorded every conversation we have had over the last 6 months, even over the phone. I have video tape of my daughter admitting to them telling her to say and do certain things that they thought would make me not come and get her. My daughter has a good dad for the most part. This sucks, yeah, but, I don't want to "ruin their family" as they have tried to accuse me of to my daughter(yes, also caught on tape). I just want my time with my daughter.

Anyone want to jump to my defense. mayby I was being to vague. Please read my origional post. My question was as follows:

I need advise as to how to go about this correctly. When I told my daughters father that I was planning on doing this, he told our daughter that I was going to try to take her away from him. She called me and told me that she would tell the judge that she didn't want to see me anymore. I still intend to file for visitation but need some serious help so I don't mess this up for her or myself as I cannot afford a lawyer. Please, any advice - even negative - will be appreciated. Thanks.

Could we please get back to the origional question now?

 

[adinicholson]

What would the *appropriate* answer be Stealth2?

 

[proud_parent]

Those are Proud_Parent's words. That implies that am a careless parent who was just to lazy to do anything thing about it and I don't appreciate it. That was not from a childs perspective, that was from her perspective.

Those were indeed my words; I'm am sorry if that was your interpretation of them.

For the record, I do not presume that you were careless or lazy. If I cared to explain your inaction, I would probably conclude that it stemmed from a sense of powerlessness, insecurity (what parent hasn't felt that), perhaps even guilt. But when it comes down to it, no one -- not the judge, not your ex, not your daughter -- honestly cares WHY you chose to act (or not to act) as you have in the past. They care only what you do now...not what you want to do, not what you think about or attempt to do, but what you actually succeed in doing.

And if a post from a perfect strangers was the catalyst needed to spur you to DO something productive, then hallelujah.

 

[stealth2]

What would the *appropriate* answer be Stealth2?

Your father and I will have to discuss this, and come to a mutually agreeable decision.

You don't ever tell the kid s/he has a choice.

 

[adinicholson]

I didn't need a catalyst from a perfect stranger to be spurred into action. As I stated in my origional post:

However, I do not want my daughter to be unhappy and have decided to fille for visitation so it is set in stone and they can't deny me my time.

So what exactly should my response be to the court if they do ask "why the delay"? I feel that the truth of the matter would work best.

And Stealth2, I appreciate the input, However, Her father and I had discussed the possibility of it in advance and came to a mutually agreed upon decision that she would be allowed to make that choice as we are both fit parents and either could raise her as well as the other. But, your response has been used by myself to her in other situations.

I have been given some great advice but has also been judged and criticized. From this point on, could we please just stick to the legal advice?

 

[wileybunch]

I need advise as to how to go about this correctly. When I told my daughters father that I was planning on doing this, he told our daughter that I was going to try to take her away from him. She called me and told me that she would tell the judge that she didn't want to see me anymore. I still intend to file for visitation but need some serious help so I don't mess this up for her or myself as I cannot afford a lawyer. Please, any advice - even negative - will be appreciated. Thanks.

stealth's answer was good -- Daddy and I will talk about it and make sure you are able to be part of both of our lives. If she seems to argue with that as it seems like you think she will, let her know that that is how it works, that the judge will want to make sure she has both her parents in her life, we have laws that protect people, and that judges are fair. Let her know she won't need to talk to the judge, the adults will work this out, not to worry.

You really can't control what your ex and his wife are doing, you really can't. You will not have a great answer for everything your DD brings to you if she's been fed lines of bull. You will have to take the high road, stay on an even keel, etc. You will have some days where you're discouraged. But, none of this should deter you, it's part of the "long hard road" you have committed to be on.

The bottom line is that you do need to file and know that the system wants both parents involved and let the chips fall where they may.

 

[proud_parent]

I believe that once the court issues a judgement, they will have no power anymore for fear of contempt and there will be no benefit in poisioning my daughters mind any longer. although it may continue, I will be able to be there to counteract it. Things due to lack of fuel, will go back to the way they were, although it may take some time. I won't hold a grudge so she will see that it is one sided.

This strikes me as an incredibly naïve belief, especially if the alienation is so extensive as you claim. It would be wonderful if it were that easy. I will pray for your daughter's sake that you will persevere when you learn that it is not.

Could we please get back to the origional question now?

See responses from Ohiogal, escape2paradise, wileybunch, and others who gave their suggestions.

Please, any advice - even negative - will be appreciated. Thanks.

See my responses. You're welcome.

I didn't need a catalyst from a perfect stranger to be spurred into action.

With all due respect, the history which you volunteered suggests that despite your best intentions, you may need assistance in order to follow through. I hope you get whatever help you require. In any case, the length of time you've spent trying to prove your case here suggests that you could benefit from some redirection of focus if not a call to action.

So what exactly should my response be to the court if they do ask "why the delay"? I feel that the truth of the matter would work best.

I wholeheartedly agree; the truth is always best. For maximum impact with the judge, I suggest something along these lines:

"Your Honor, I recognize that I bear a great deal of responsibility for the present situation. The child's father and I ought to have petitioned the court from the first to have our stipulation entered so that both parties' rights would be protected. I ought to have sought mediation when I first realized that her father and I were unable to resolve our differences. I realize these things now, and will not try Your Honor's patience by offering excuses at this late stage. Instead, I humbly request the court's assistance in establishing visitation orders as will serve our daughter's best interests at this time."

 

[onebreath]

It sounds to me like you placed a great deal of trust in fathers good will...a scarcity these days...and in the end got screwed around. But at least it worked for a long time, thats the positive. I admire your cooperativeness...

and I support you in going to court to get at the minimum, what it was you two agreed on before dad started reniging (sp?) on his part of your agreement.

In addition to regular visitation, you may consider;

You can request that a clause be put in the court order that "parents refrain from making derogatory statements at any time about the other parent when in the presence of ____, or to _____. Both parents will act in a manner that is supportive of the other parent's custodial role with ____." and,

"Neither parent shall schedule activities for the minor extending into or during the other parent's confirmed custodial periods without the express written permission of the other parent. However, the other parent will give primary consideration to accomodate the needs of _____, once permission for that activity has been given, that permission cannot be withdrawn".

One last consideration is outside of doing it yourself (almost free, and you have a pretty darned good case), is to hire a paralegal to help you do all the forms and filing....to make the process as inexpensive as possible.

And, when/IF you daughter brings up to you that dad says you are trying to take her away, just say no, that is a big misunderstanding, I would never try to do that. I have always supported your relationship with your father and family there, and I will always support our relationship and family here as well. End of story.

If you agree. I hope that helps. Good luck.

 

[adinicholson]

Thank you so much Onebreath. It sounds like you really do understand. I appreciate your advice and intend to take it as well as alot of other advice I have received from this forums suscribers. Also, Thanks for the advice on the Paralegal, another thing I had not thought of.

Proud_Parent, Thanks for the comment on what I should say to the judge. I don't want to sound over emotional and it is hard not to try and explain things when one is feeling attacked. I believe your suggested responce does not only suit my purpose, but, in a more rational frame of mind I would be able to come up with something similar, even though it would be missing a few things that you have included and without near your eloquence, because it is the truth from my view. I really do appreciate your wording of the comment.

I have copied all of the wonderful advice and information from both of you and the others as well. I know that regardless of my interpretation of some comments made, you were all trying to help and I feel that it will do nothing but strengthen my chances of obtaining what I think is best for my daughter, which is to have a strong relationship with both sides of her family. Making her life fuller with love and presence of each parent, I have always believed was in her best interest, and hope to prevail in this task.

Again, Thank you all so much.