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Conservatorship and ab trust

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inzanezanster

Junior Member
What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? CALIFORNIA
parents set up ab trust 15 years ago. mom died and trust was split into ab...funded and properly maintained, invested, taxes etc. brother and i were named co-poa for health and finance and co-successor trustees. my sister as back up should one of us vacate. my brother died..which moved my sister in with me as "co". a long lost aunt from pennsylvania who has a history of appearing at old people's places and ending up in their wills, etc. came to my dad's home after brother died. unknown to us she got him to sign a poa for finances. he had begun to have memory problems. unknown to us she sold his house. the house was in the b trust created when my mom died and is not revocable. my father had used up most of the a trust assets and would be needing to use trust b money at some point. she sold the house and took the money (1.3 million dollars) and put it in her personal bank in pennsylvania unknown to us. we found al this out...my dad said he never made her poa and did not know anythintg about house sale. he said that money should be in the trust.

i confronted her...she said she would resign as poa and return the money (which was now down to 500,000)..then she got a lawyer and refused to return the money.

i had my dad sign a revocation of her poa and a new poa reinstating us. i sent it to the bank in pa. she told them our poa was fake. we sent the trust showing we were succcessor trustees, etc. the bank froze the account and said they would not do anythng until they received a court order.

she then petitioned the court to assign a conservator to my dad for finance. her attorney told the court in an ex parte that a conservator was needed to get the money back to californa...it was in a non fdic covered state and not invested. i said the money belongs in the trust account where it came from and no conservator is needed. i said my dad is mentally unable to hanlde finances now due to short term memory loss. the judge ignored me. he ordered the public guardian to get money back to ca using a temporary conservatorship. the judge ordered both aunt and our poa negated. the money was returned. now there is a hearing for the temp conservatorship to become permanent. my dad does not want this or need it; the trust should cover everthing and the poa we had and my sister and i should handle things as my parent's intended. my ssiter and i are sole beneficiaries of the trust, the aunt's attny says we will take the money ior mismanage it if we are in charge of it.

we do not have an attorney...the hearing is tomorrow. i know you will say we shoud have an attorney...but we dont so don't give that as your answer please.

my question is ...doesn't the money belong in the ab trust...b trust and doesn't my sister and i have right to manage it according to parent's trust and poa? oh,....when the judge ordered a temp conservator he told them to out the money in a Totten trust. i do not see how that can haoppen. but of course the judge did not listen...spent two minutes on it and we were done....standing there dumbfounded and no chance to be heard.What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)?
 


tecate

Member
There are many issues to sort out, but the first is the hearing tomorrow. While this is a DIY website, you and your sister are doing yourselves a huge disservice trying to do this yourselves. You have priority to be appointed co-conservators over your father, but you will need to file your own petition asap. Assuming you will be appointed, you will then have the power to sue your aunt if warranted.

There is a CEB treatise on this subject if you insist on proceeding yourselves.
 
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tranquility

Senior Member
we do not have an attorney...the hearing is tomorrow. i know you will say we shoud have an attorney...but we dont so don't give that as your answer please.
OK, I won't say it. In fact, I can't really say anything except that, if the facts are as you say they are, you were stupid to get where you are by playing fast and loose with your fiducuary duties by not getting an attorney in the first place.

Let me add, that going to the hearing on your own without an attorney, when you are clearly unable to represent your position adequately, will almost assuredly be a breach of your fiduciary duties and may make you *personally* liable to the beneficiaries for that breach.

But, I certainly will respect your wishes and not tell you to get an attorney.

Info edit:
Remember Tecate, the OP is also a trustee and this has to do with trust funds as well as the conservatorship. That's the only reason he can be there in the first place. Even a signed POA won't give the attorney in fact the ability to represent another in court.
 
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tecate

Member
OP can be there because he is issue and first in line (with his sister) to become conservator of the estate, but he will need to file his own petition. If he merely appears and expects the court to "do what's right" my guess is he will get the same result he got when he appeared at the hearing about temporary letters.

I agree that the trust issues are important, but OP can be deal with them later. For now, I think shoving aunt aside is priority #1. With letters, he will have standing to inquire and sue about the POA transactions for assets previously withdrawn from the trust. Otherwise, OP will be on the outside looking in, trying to prove that father's withdrawals were not appropriate.

The court can always authorize a re-funding.
 

tranquility

Senior Member
The OP believes:
unknown to us she sold his house. the house was in the b trust created when my mom died and is not revocable. my father had used up most of the a trust assets and would be needing to use trust b money at some point. she sold the house and took the money (1.3 million dollars) and put it in her personal bank in pennsylvania unknown to us.
And now he is going on his own to a hearing to try to fix this. Even though the hearing is regarding conservatorship, I suggest the OP get an...(Wait he doesn't want to hear that.), I suggest the OP considers his personal liability for his potential breach of fiduciary duties and seek professional advice.
 

inzanezanster

Junior Member
the court has now declared my dad unable to handle his finances....so if my sister and i are co-successor trustees and we were co-poa ...why do we need a conservatorship at all and have to pay all those fees and have the court involved when that is why my parents set uop the truist to avoid. just because some aunt who is a con artist takes off with the money does not mean that he needs a comnservatorr shiop.
 

tranquility

Senior Member
You probably don't, but your inability to make that argument legally has put you at risk of breaching any one of your fiduciary duties. You have a duty to hire professionals to advise you if needed. One is needed. Hire him.
 

inzanezanster

Junior Member
It always sounds easy to say get an attorney, but the costs are so high and they will not take the case on contingency in these type matters. So what is someone like me to do? I just received a report from the public guardian...the night before the hearing of course. it says that the money is in a Totten trust payable on death to the family AB trust which is not revokable...you can not take money from the sale of a house in the b trust and just put it in a totten trust and let the public guardian handle it and ignore the trust and the successor trustees. These people have no evidence to support any reason for the need for a conservatorship. They just make up things...isn't there any need for evidence to be presented in such matters?

the public guardian office seems very corrupt from what i see...they are uising people like my dad to fund their office in a time of cutbacks by the state. there are tons of cases like this i see on the internet. i guess the judges are in cahoots with them as well. the whole thing is disgusting.
 

tecate

Member
I join tranquility in telling you nicely that your present course of action will probably get you nowhere. Once this dawns on you, and from your last post, it appears that it hasn't, the question will arise: So now what? Well, you can learn how to do something about your situation, just watch as the process happens, or howl at the moon. Take your pick.

If you choose howling at the moon, IMO talking like a big shot and accusing those with whom you will be dealing of being corrupt won't advance your cause, and in fact may make it more difficult to achieve. If you want to learn more, but don't want to pay someone else who has learned what to do, then hit the books and learn what you need to learn. We are happy to give our .02, but if you go on a rant about the system instead, or brush off what we have to say, which to me is what you have done, don't be surprised if all you get from now on is silence. If you want to appear tomorrow not knowing how to push the right buttons, things will happen whether you like them or not.

Eventually, you will find that discovering how to get what you want is not easy. Tranquility and I gave you good starting points. Believe it or not, there are reasons for the system. Once you find this out for yourself, you will be on your way. Good luck.
 

BlondiePB

Senior Member
the court has now declared my dad unable to handle his finances....so if my sister and i are co-successor trustees and we were co-poa ...why do we need a conservatorship at all and have to pay all those fees and have the court involved when that is why my parents set uop the truist to avoid. just because some aunt who is a con artist takes off with the money does not mean that he needs a comnservatorr shiop.
The court determined that dad needs a conservator, which, in itself, is enough said. Your dad pays for the costs and fees - not you & sis.

It always sounds easy to say get an attorney, but the costs are so high and they will not take the case on contingency in these type matters.
That is correct. These cases are not contingency cases.
So what is someone like me to do?
Use monies from the trust. If not mistaken, that is just one thing that Tranquility was referring to about your fiduciary duties.
I just received a report from the public guardian...the night before the hearing of course. it says that the money is in a Totten trust payable on death to the family AB trust which is not revokable...you can not take money from the sale of a house in the b trust and just put it in a totten trust and let the public guardian handle it and ignore the trust and the successor trustees.
You nor anyone else can put the money in a trotten trust, but a judge can.
These people have no evidence to support any reason for the need for a conservatorship.
I disagree.
the public guardian office seems very corrupt from what i see...they are uising people like my dad to fund their office in a time of cutbacks by the state. there are tons of cases like this i see on the internet. i guess the judges are in cahoots with them as well. the whole thing is disgusting.
I disagree.

Just curious...how does a house with a deed titled to a trust get sold by a POA? :confused:
 

BlondiePB

Senior Member
Eventually, you will find that discovering how to get what you want is not easy. Tranquility and I gave you good starting points. Believe it or not, there are reasons for the system. Once you find this out for yourself, you will be on your way. Good luck.
Yep, you both did give great starting points. This site needs a head-banging icon.
 

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