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GraysonKelly

Junior Member
What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? West Virginia

Hi,
I realize that this post may upset some people but I really don't mean to. I'm going to try to explain this as fully as I can so that you kind people out there might be able to offer some kind of advice or wisdom. I'd like to preface this by saying that I, in no way, mean to disparage fathers out there and will admit that I only know one and half sides of this issue. I'd also like to say that I'm only asking these questions because I'm worried about the little girl.

First, I am the child's aunt. The child is almost 18 months old. Here's the story. I realize that a lot of the verbal agreements are irrelevant but in order to get the whole picture I'm going to tell it as it has been told to me.

A little over two years ago, my sister got pregnant by her then boyfriend. At the beginning of her second trimester, the boyfriend moved into her house while still maintaining his own house. At the end of her second trimester he left her. He would not contribute either time nor money to supporting either my sister, himself (my sister essentially kept him) and told my sister that he would not assist her in caring for the baby. My sister, not being able to afford living where she was at the time, told him that she thought it would be best if all of them went back to WV where she could better afford to support them (herself, the baby, and him) and have the support of her family as well. He left her not long after she had suggested that. My sister, alone and 6 months pregnant went ahead and planned to move back to WV. For two months after their separation, she attempted to get him to sit down with her and talk about how and when he would see the baby and how he would help support them if he could. He never told her anything. He rarely returned her calls and when he did, he was abusive. The week before she moved, she asked him one last time to meet her and discuss his plan to be involved with his daughter. He would not meet her face to face so over the phone he asked her what she wanted. She told him that since he hadn't answered her in two months since they broke up and didn't seem interested in coming up with a plan that he could just walk away if he wanted to. He initially verbally abused her, calling her names and such, then asked her if he would be dragged into court or responsible financially if he walked. She told him that he would be completely off the hook and he agreed then hung up on her.

When the baby was born, she sent a message to him telling him. Two weeks after that, he called and asked about the baby. Asked her consider letting him visit. The day after that he sent her an email telling her that he'd changed his mind and the he would stay away and not to send any pictures or information about the baby either to him or anyone in his family. My sis responded by email telling him that was fine with her. After that there was a string of abusive, harrassing, threatening emails. He claimed to love his daughter but never attempted to work a time to come meet my sister to discuss it. My sister begged him to leave her alone, stop emailing and stop calling at all hours harrassing her and he just got more abusive. Finally, she told him in an email that unless he came up with a concrete plan of not only visitation but also monetary support and stopped his name calling and abusive language she would not respond to his emails. Eight months went by with no emails but a constant barrage of calls. He never sent cards, presents, merry christmas messages, nothing to his daughter. He never even sent her a card for her birthday.

Now he is taking my sister to court for the right of visitation. My question is, since he hasn't been there for the last 18 months and has proven to be abusive, irresponsible and inconsistent and has threatened my sister with coming "take the baby" is it feasible that my sister can get his rights severed? She knows now that she made a mistake in not asking him to do so earlier. My sister is worried that this man is not a good person to have in her daughter's life because of his behavior. My sister does have knowledge of how he has mistreated other children in his life (family's kids) and has reason to fear that he would be no different with my niece.

I understand that legally he has a right to her if only because of biology, but can my sister reasonably expect to get his rights severed? Or if not, can she respectfully request that he go throught counselling and parenting classes and supervised visitation in WV before he would ever be allowed to be alone with her or take her out of state?
Thanks
 


Ohiogal

Queen Bee
No your sister cannot get his rights severed. He has to establish paternity and then he will get visitation and sister can get support. Until paternity was established he had no obligations to supporting this child legally. The baby is NOT his child until paternity is established. And he has NOT proven himself abusive.
 

GraysonKelly

Junior Member
A couple more questions

Ohiogal,
I'm not arguing what you said, I just don't understand much of this process and am tryiing to get information for my sister. So I hope you don't mind that I ask some procedural type questions.

Am I correct in assuming that he will have to prove paternity before any court case can go forward? (I'm sorry I left that out initially, I forgot to type it in)

Can my sister or her lawyer stipulate that he must complete parenting classes and/or counseling in order to be allowed to be alone with her? I mean, is it unreasonable to want him supervised at least for while?

Does my niece have to be a certain age before he can take her out of the state?

Does he have to pay child support?

Can he sue my sister for his court costs which is what he said he was going to do?

I apologize if these questions seem really simplistic, I'm just trying to understand this process.

Thanks for your help.
Gray
 

Ohiogal

Queen Bee
,


Am I correct in assuming that he will have to prove paternity before any court case can go forward? (I'm sorry I left that out initially, I forgot to type it in)
He can ask that paternity be established by the court through a court ordered DNA test.

Can my sister or her lawyer stipulate that he must complete parenting classes and/or counseling in order to be allowed to be alone with her? I mean, is it unreasonable to want him supervised at least for while?
How long was your sister supervised in her parenting? Did she complete parenting classes and counseling in order to be alone with the child?

Does my niece have to be a certain age before he can take her out of the state?
No.

Does he have to pay child support?
If he is court ordered to pay.

Can he sue my sister for his court costs which is what he said he was going to do?
He can ask that she pay for court costs.


Your sister needs to prove through ADMISSIBLE EVIDENCE that he needs parenting classes and counseling. She may not be able to do that.
 

LdiJ

Senior Member
I think that OG's answers were a little incomplete.

Ohiogal,
I'm not arguing what you said, I just don't understand much of this process and am tryiing to get information for my sister. So I hope you don't mind that I ask some procedural type questions.

Am I correct in assuming that he will have to prove paternity before any court case can go forward? (I'm sorry I left that out initially, I forgot to type it in)
Yes, he will have to prove paternity.

Can my sister or her lawyer stipulate that he must complete parenting classes and/or counseling in order to be allowed to be alone with her? I mean, is it unreasonable to want him supervised at least for while?
It is likely that he will be supervised for a while because the child does not know him. In a situation like this generally visitation starts out in phases (the first phase being in the mother's home) and works its way up to a regular type of schedule.

Does my niece have to be a certain age before he can take her out of the state?
No, that depends more on how he follows through with establishing a relationship with the child.

Does he have to pay child support?
Your sister will have to file for child support, but if she does, he will be required to pay support.

Can he sue my sister for his court costs which is what he said he was going to do?
He can, but its not very likely that he would prevail.

I apologize if these questions seem really simplistic, I'm just trying to understand this process.

Thanks for your help.
Gray
Most people don't understand the process unless they have been involved in a case.
 
,
How long was your sister supervised in her parenting? Did she complete parenting classes and counseling in order to be alone with the child?
Og, thanks for saying that so that I didn't have to.
It is likely that he will be supervised for a while because the child does not know him. In a situation like this generally visitation starts out in phases (the first phase being in the mother's home) and works its way up to a regular type of schedule.
case.
Nice stretch there:rolleyes:, but WV has a statute regarding supervised visitation for a GRANDparent, but not a parent.

The only mention I find on supervised visits for a parent are in DV cases agains the kids.
 

GraysonKelly

Junior Member
I appreciate all the tips that you'll have provided. I understand that legally there is nothing that can be done to stop this. I understand and accept it. However, this is an extremely emotionally charged issue for my sister and for the rest of my family. I have witnessed his atrocious behavior and it breaks my heart that he has to hurt my niece before anyone will stop him from having her. His behavior has not changed. It is obvious in every email he sends and every phone call he makes. He is abusive. And he will hurt that child. It is just a shame that because my sister made the right choice to stay away from him and received and followed some apparently incomplete and incorrect legal advice two years ago that my niece is going to get hurt. And make no mistake, she will get hurt. It sucks that the "system" won't protect her because my sister protected her first by getting away. Yes, I know I just opened myself up to a bunch of "this is the law, get over it" comments. But I'm not insulting anyone who has responded my inquiries. I wholeheartedly appreciate and respect your comments and your expertise. I'm just being emotional. And unfortunately, the law nor the court cares about that...nor do they apparently care about the emotional damage that this child will suffer.

Thanks again
 

Isis1

Senior Member
grrr!!! sister made the WRONG choice when she did NOT report the abuse. she could have protected herself. she chose not to. so now she will have to deal with her non actions.
all she has left is responding to dad's request of visitation. which WILL be granted. at a graduated level maybe, but overnights are eventual. and one helpful hint, if graduated visitation starts with in her home supervision, make sure there is an adult present.
 

Zigner

Senior Member, Non-Attorney
I appreciate all the tips that you'll have provided. I understand that legally there is nothing that can be done to stop this. I understand and accept it. However, this is an extremely emotionally charged issue for my sister and for the rest of my family. I have witnessed his atrocious behavior and it breaks my heart that he has to hurt my niece before anyone will stop him from having her. His behavior has not changed. It is obvious in every email he sends and every phone call he makes. He is abusive. And he will hurt that child. It is just a shame that because my sister made the right choice to stay away from him and received and followed some apparently incomplete and incorrect legal advice two years ago that my niece is going to get hurt. And make no mistake, she will get hurt. It sucks that the "system" won't protect her because my sister protected her first by getting away. Yes, I know I just opened myself up to a bunch of "this is the law, get over it" comments. But I'm not insulting anyone who has responded my inquiries. I wholeheartedly appreciate and respect your comments and your expertise. I'm just being emotional. And unfortunately, the law nor the court cares about that...nor do they apparently care about the emotional damage that this child will suffer.

Thanks again
Keep in mind that this monster constitutes one half of the child.
And, your sister found him to be wonderful baby-making material...
 

GraysonKelly

Junior Member
Keep in mind that this monster constitutes one half of the child.
And, your sister found him to be wonderful baby-making material...
The inference here, I think, is that my sister made a mistake in sleeping with him to begin with. Well, you're right. And everybody knows that. Again, I'm not disputing the laws explained to me here. And while she did make a mistake in sleeping with him to begin with, the baby has never, ever been considered a mistake by my sister or my family. He is the one who wanted to "erase" my sister's and "the baby's existence" from his life and wanted to "go on as he had never met" my sister. (email quotes from before baby was born) I have no answers for why he is doing this now. I wish I did. I keep hoping that whoever said that he will probably get tired of the baby and just disappear is right. (I'm sorry I don't remember who said that) I'm also kind of hoping that he does the decent thing and willingly gives up paternity (if he proves it). I know I'm reaching here, but I just want my niece happy, healthy, and safe.
Thanks again
I should probably stop posting to this now because this thread has become more about my emotions than about the law. If I've offended anyone or unknowingly broken the rules I apologize.
 

Ohiogal

Queen Bee
HE CANNOT GIVE UP PATERNITY. Good grief. Nor can he relinguish his rights. Your sister has been married for a solid amount of time and her hubby wants to adopt the baby? Jeez. sis moves fast.
 

GraysonKelly

Junior Member
HE CANNOT GIVE UP PATERNITY. Good grief. Nor can he relinguish his rights. Your sister has been married for a solid amount of time and her hubby wants to adopt the baby? Jeez. sis moves fast.
Excuse me? I never said anything about my sister being married or anyone wanting to adopt the baby. In fact, that's not even what's happening. Regardless of whether this means anything to you or not, I do not appreciate your inference. I have not lied about anything with regard to this situation. I got the answers that I was looking for and I have thanked you all for them. I didn't know that he couldn't give up his paternity so thank YOU for clearing that up. But my sister is not the person you are talking about in this post.

Wait, I think I understand what you are saying and no, sis is not married and no one wants to adopt the baby. She just wants to protect her from this man and for him to stop harrassing her. Forgive me for giving you reason to "shout" at me (all caps). But I have acknowledged the emotions surrounding this case and have asked all my questions. Whether I think it is right or not, my sister cannot stop this.
 
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Ohiogal

Queen Bee
Excuse me? I never said anything about my sister being married or anyone wanting to adopt the baby. In fact, that's not even what's happening. Regardless of whether this means anything to you or not, I do not appreciate your inference. I have not lied about anything with regard to this situation. I got the answers that I was looking for and I have thanked you all for them. I didn't know that he couldn't give up his paternity so thank YOU for clearing that up. But my sister is not the person you are talking about in this post.

Wait, I think I understand what you are saying and no, sis is not married and no one wants to adopt the baby. She just wants to protect her from this man and for him to stop harrassing her. Forgive me for giving you reason to "shout" at me (all caps). But I have acknowledged the emotions surrounding this case and have asked all my questions. Whether I think it is right or not, my sister cannot stop this.
You don't appreciate my inference? Oh sorry you don't appreciate that the law requires that there be stepparent to adopt if mom wants dad to give up rights and that I am inferring that your sis has to be married for a stable long time (most states look at about a year).

The problem is she cannot protect her niece from her father. She can tell him if he wants to communicate it needs to be in writing and must be about only their daughter and her wellbeing.
 

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