Son accused of sexual harassment

[BOR]

My son plays football and has certainly seen this girls "bloomers" before... and certainly was not harassing her. While I agree it is innapropriate for him to do this in the school hallway...I'm not certain it is sexual harassment.

My question is, Is this truely considered sexual harassment if she does not make the complaint against him?

The core of act is not in dispute, regardless of the term applied.

If a technical sense, not it was harassment, as it was not unwelcomed, as in the GF cared if it was done, as she obviously did not

Public School suspensions are scrutinized under the Due Process Clause of the 14th Amendment.

The conduct in today's sensitive environment was not appropriate, as you readily admit.

IMO, the suspension is not barred by the 14th, I am not an attorney though.

If our concern is the phraseology of the Charge, submit your concern to the HS or Board.

 

[cbg]

I don't think you can assume it's "obvious" that the girlfriend consented, or didn't mind, having her skirt tipped up in public. Just because she didn't make a fuss right there, doesn't mean she didn't go home and cry with embarrassment over having had her underwear displayed to all and sundry.

Many teenage girls, and for that matter women beyond their teens, would not display any emotion about the situation right there, because she'd be too afraid of being further humiliated by being laughed at or told she was over-reacting.

And if Mom does not recognize this fact, it's only because she's too deep in denial over the idea that her precious son might actually have to face the consequences of his action.

I agree that a three day suspension is getting off light. To make a further comparison to an employment situation, if he worked for me and did this to a co-worker, he'd be fired so fast his feet would smoke on his way out the door.

 

[BOR]

I don't think you can assume it's "obvious" that the girlfriend consented, or didn't mind, having her skirt tipped up in public. Just because she didn't make a fuss right there, doesn't mean she didn't go home and cry with embarrassment over having had her underwear displayed to all and sundry.

If this is directed at my comment, I based it on she said they had been dating 2 years, so I am assuming other horseplay has happned in that time frame. If she cared, per se, she probably would have broken up a long time ago.

It was not underwear for the record, it was "cheerleader bloomers", like swimming trunks, a big difference. When they twist and jump on the basketball court, the skirts fly up, so NO underwear.

 

[cbg]

It's one thing to indulge in horseplay in private. It's quite another thing to have it happen in the middle of the open hallway.

And regardless of whether it's underwear or cheerleader bloomers, no one has the right to be tipping up her skirt in a public area. Period.

 

[BOR]

It's one thing to indulge in horseplay in private. It's quite another thing to have it happen in the middle of the open hallway.

And regardless of whether it's underwear or cheerleader bloomers, no one has the right to be tipping up her skirt in a public area. Period.

I agree with all that, no problem here.

 

[Zigner]

If this is directed at my comment, I based it on she said they had been dating 2 years, so I am assuming other horseplay has happned in that time frame. If she cared, per se, she probably would have broken up a long time ago.

While extreme, that is like claiming that a person doesn't have the right to accuse somebody of rape based on having had previous consensual sex with the attacker.

 

[CdwJava]

Ultimately, this will come down as to how "sexual harassment" is defined, and whether they can point to a relevant definition in the local rules or state law. If the language includes terms such as "unwelcome ..." or similar language, then the opinion or thoughts of the girl in question will be quite relevant. If the definition is broader to include any horseplay, touching, groping, etc. of a sexual nature then the position might be easier for the school to defend.

If the act was stupid horseplay and not overly disruptive, and the girl was not offended for some reason, then I'd say a 3 day suspension is probably appropriate.

 

[CdwJava]

While extreme, that is like claiming that a person doesn't have the right to accuse somebody of rape based on having had previous consensual sex with the attacker.

Not really the same thing at all, Zig.

I think the point BOR was making was that this was not likely an isolated act by the boyfriend, and if she felt that this sort of horseplay was offensive she would have dumped him before this.

The issue in a sexual harassment case will often be whether or not the conduct was unwanted in some way. However, schools may offer up a broader definition to include any such public displays, but the key may well revolve around whether or not the action was unwelcome. If the girl (victim of the harassment) sees the act as just a stupid - maybe even "cute" - act by her boyfriend, then there may be no offense that the school can readily apply.

It will likely come down to how well defined they have these things.

 

[stealth2]

LOL This young man is lucky he's not dating my daughter. He'd be lucky to get off with a few broken fingers.

 

[cyjeff]

LOL This young man is lucky he's not dating my daughter. He'd be lucky to get off with a few broken fingers.

I was proud of myself. I didn't use the old standby.

A kid tries something like that on my daughter, the best he can hope for is a warning shot.















Just kidding, of course.



I don't give warning shots.

 

[stealth2]

I was proud of myself. I didn't use the old standby.

A kid tries something like that on my daughter, the best he can hope for is a warning shot.
.
.
.
.

Just kidding, of course.



I don't give warning shots.

See... I don't worry about that. My girl would handle it her own self. (Her (male) PE teacher has actually told boys to stand down from her, because she will take care of business and he's not sure he's strong enough to stop her. She doesn't take a lot of you-know-what from anyone.)

And what she didn't finish? Her brother would. She is the one person people don't mess with, as far as he's concerned. That goes both ways. It's a beautiful thing.

 

[Zigner]

Not really the same thing at all, Zig.

I think the point BOR was making was that this was not likely an isolated act by the boyfriend, and if she felt that this sort of horseplay was offensive she would have dumped him before this.

The issue in a sexual harassment case will often be whether or not the conduct was unwanted in some way. However, schools may offer up a broader definition to include any such public displays, but the key may well revolve around whether or not the action was unwelcome. If the girl (victim of the harassment) sees the act as just a stupid - maybe even "cute" - act by her boyfriend, then there may be no offense that the school can readily apply.

It will likely come down to how well defined they have these things.

So, let's say that the girl is ok with this occurring at home (hers or the boyfriend's) and the girl is ok with this happening at the grocery store. Does that automatically make the girl is ok with it (welcomes it) it at school?

Carl, you know that prior approval of an act does not necessarily imply future approval, particularly when it may be perceived as sexual in nature.

 

[CdwJava]

So, let's say that the girl is ok with this occurring at home (hers or the boyfriend's) and the girl is ok with this happening at the grocery store. Does that automatically make the girl is ok with it (welcomes it) it at school?

No. But, if the definition of "sexual harassment" as used in school policy or relevant state codes requires the action be UNWANTED or UNWELCOME, then her opinion on the matter is entirely relevant.

Note that her opinion does not make the actions proper, but it may cause the act to be unactionable by the school.

Carl, you know that prior approval of an act does not necessarily imply future approval, particularly when it may be perceived as sexual in nature.

But we do not know that. In fact, mom seems to imply that the girl is claiming to be okay with it.

If the elements of the offense are not met, then the kid cannot be held accountable.

The problem with many school policies is that they are vague and quite broad. What they term "sexual harassment" should probably be re-classified in this case to something akin to "improper horseplay." A term such as sexual harassment likely has some very clear legal definitions, and those that I have found indicate that it must be UNWELCOME. Thus, if it is not unwelcome, it is not an offense.

Many things can be boorish and improper but will not be in any way unlawful or a violation of the rules. It may well boil down to definitions here.

 

[cyjeff]

We also do not know the age of the young lady in question.

Besides, who asked her if it was okay? The same guy that picked up her skirt in the hallway?

 

[Isis1]

We also do not know the age of the young lady in question.

Besides, who asked her if it was okay? The same guy that picked up her skirt in the hallway?

According to the poster, under the age of consent. Which in PA, is 16. Which is why I'm steadfast in she was not able to give consent to the sexual behavior.