Schools and facebook stuff

[LdiJ]

Ohhh, the Civil Rights Project and their "words" are so tempting.

You really seem to be having a problem with the fact that the OP was rightfully suspended. If he'd post what was all written on his FB wall, I'm SURE you could see where exactly he went wrong. But, whatevs.

If I change my font, I'm sure you'll be still arguing about this being free speech, when it's obviously not. Good luck with that.

I have not commented on this argument between you and Zig until now.

If it was my child, and I had the funds to pursue it, I would take it all the way to the USSC if necessary....and I come from a family of educators.

 

[tranquility]

Ohhh, the Civil Rights Project and their "words" are so tempting.

You really seem to be having a problem with the fact that the OP was rightfully suspended. If he'd post what was all written on his FB wall, I'm SURE you could see where exactly he went wrong. But, whatevs.

If I change my font, I'm sure you'll be still arguing about this being free speech, when it's obviously not. Good luck with that.

Let's see here, news articles have been provided about how litigation is going on over just this issue in one case and how the ACLU is interested in this issue in the second place. There is substantial guidance from Supreme Court cases and a respected research project on Civil Rights points out over suspension for minor things is a problem in the OPs state.

Humuslver has incorrectly stated what the law was in this thread more than once. She fails to see the difference the legal issue between in school and out of school speech and is clueless as to how the courts would decide on this matter if it got to them. (Well, without making up some facts.)

I accept the fact petty bureaucrats get away with their nonsense because they have qualified immunity to their actions and it is just too expensive to litigate with damages of missing three days of "education". But, that doesn't mean it's not nonsense.

Piling on edit:
Let's bring the articles to three.

http://mashable.com/2011/02/01/facebook-free-speech-high-school/

The comment in question, which was written after Tobolski was assigned an unusually large amount of biology homework, stated that the boy’s teacher was a “fat ass who should stop eating fast food, and is a douche bag.” The message was posted from Tobolski’s home computer and not during school hours.

For those who care, google:

student suspension facebook

to see the problem and to see the millions of dollars in litigation coming down the pike against these fools who use their power to punish those who challenge them through speech.

 

[Ohiogal]

This thread reminds me of the time the juvenile prosecutor told me that I should quit arguing using the Constitution because I was well aware that "the Constitution has never applied and never will apply in juvenile court."
Guess what? She was wrong.
Oh and yes, free speech applies in regards to those who are under 18. Even if they go to school. The school was wrong in suspending this person for stating an opinion on his personal account from his home that was not otherwise illegal. Or for suspending the student for not showing the school his PRIVATE facebook account.

 

[Humusluvr]

This thread reminds me of the time the juvenile prosecutor told me that I should quit arguing using the Constitution because I was well aware that "the Constitution has never applied and never will apply in juvenile court."
Guess what? She was wrong.
Oh and yes, free speech applies in regards to those who are under 18. Even if they go to school. The school was wrong in suspending this person for stating an opinion on his personal account from his home that was not otherwise illegal. Or for suspending the student for not showing the school his PRIVATE facebook account.

Oh my god, YOU didn't read it either? Sheesh, the seniors here.

This case is not one damn bit about free speech. It's about slander and making disorderly and threatening remarks about a teacher, for goodness sake.

You can SAY anything you want, anytime you want, but when you walk into a school, and you break their rules, you go home.

This kid's case is not like ANY of the cases that Tranq or Zig posted. DO YOU PEOPLE NOT GET THAT??????????

The only reason I keep coming back to this thread, after being the only person who appropriately advised the OP, is to see what ridiculousness the seniors have posted here. And this is so, so, so sad that OG, Zig, And Tranq can't read.

I am seriously banging my head against the wall here. I am the ONLY senior who has posted the proper explanation to the OP.

IF this had JUST been him posting "my teacher is a b****" and they suspended him, then y'all would be correct. THAT'S NOT THE CASE. READ.

 

[Humusluvr]

http://education.findlaw.com/school-safety/legal-issues-and-laws-relating-to-school-safety.html

The U.S. Supreme Court has declared that students attending public schools do not "shed their constitutional rights to freedom of speech or expression at the schoolhouse gate". (Tinker vs. Des Moines School Dist. 393 U.S. 503 upholding the right of students to wear black armbands in school in protest of the Vietnam War). Even so, while students are afforded First Amendment freedoms, their rights may be restricted. There have been a variety of free speech lawsuits involving public schools over the years. The Court has ruled that certain types of speech, including the wearing of certain clothing and religious symbols (for example, t-shirts with suggestive language or a necklace with the symbol of a cross) and participation in groups or associations must be applied in a manner that attempts to balance a student's free speech rights and a school's need to provide a safe learning environment.

SAFE LEARNING ENVIRONMENT PEEPS

Edited to add

Student Codes of Conduct/Discipline Policies

Most schools have some sort of student codes of conduct and other discipline policies which generally outline a student's rights and responsibilities within the student body. These policies also typically include types of behavior that are acceptable or inappropriate on school campuses (or even beyond school doors). Parents (or guardians) should read through these policies with their child to ensure awareness of important safety and discipline guidelines.

 

[Just Blue]

Oh my god, YOU didn't read it either? Sheesh, the seniors here.

This case is not one damn bit about free speech. It's about slander and making disorderly and threatening remarks about a teacher, for goodness sake.

You can SAY anything you want, anytime you want, but when you walk into a school, and you break their rules, you go home.

This kid's case is not like ANY of the cases that Tranq or Zig posted. DO YOU PEOPLE NOT GET THAT??????????

The only reason I keep coming back to this thread, after being the only person who appropriately advised the OP, is to see what ridiculousness the seniors have posted here. And this is so, so, so sad that OG, Zig, And Tranq can't read.

I am seriously banging my head against the wall here. I am the ONLY senior who has posted the proper explanation to the OP.

IF this had JUST been him posting "my teacher is a b****" and they suspended him, then y'all would be correct. THAT'S NOT THE CASE. READ.

I actually agree with most of the post by you, Traq, OG and ZIG.
But the child (spurting out my Sam Adams) should not be held responsible for the comments of others at school.

I, personally, get that OP is accountable for his ACTION that created this situation.

I also understand that the school may use their own methods to deal with these issues.

It MIGHT come down to the parents of this rude child (op), going to an attorney that would like to "take it on".

BTW: If OP were MY child? Whatever the school punishment was would be FAR nicer than what I WOULD DO.

 

[Humusluvr]

I actually agree with most of the post by you, Traq, OG and ZIG.
But the child (spurting out my Sam Adams) should not be held responsible for the comments of others at school.

I, personally, get that OP is accountable for his ACTION that created this situation.

I also understand that the school may use their own methods to deal with these issues.

It MIGHT come down to the parents of this rude child (op), going to an attorney that would like to "take it on".

BTW: If OP were MY child? Whatever the school punishment was would be FAR nicer than what I WOULD DO.

Thank you! And I agree that if my child were involved in a conversation that involved saying rotten and rude things about a teacher, he better pray that his suspension doesn't involve hard labor.

This post didn't JUST involve free speech, however. It disrupted the school environment so significantly, it was the equivalent of falsely yelling FIRE in a crowded theater. The OP's wall contained a post that was so reckless and malicious that it was not protected speech. It was expressed FORBIDDEN under the student code of conduct.

 

[I'mTheFather]

So many unfounded assumptions! Hopefully, anyone using the search function and reading this thread will realize that.

OP hasn't been back for 5 days, and I think this thread has run its course.

 

[Ohiogal]

Oh my god, YOU didn't read it either? Sheesh, the seniors here.

This case is not one damn bit about free speech. It's about slander and making disorderly and threatening remarks about a teacher, for goodness sake.

You can SAY anything you want, anytime you want, but when you walk into a school, and you break their rules, you go home.

This kid's case is not like ANY of the cases that Tranq or Zig posted. DO YOU PEOPLE NOT GET THAT??????????

The only reason I keep coming back to this thread, after being the only person who appropriately advised the OP, is to see what ridiculousness the seniors have posted here. And this is so, so, so sad that OG, Zig, And Tranq can't read.

I am seriously banging my head against the wall here. I am the ONLY senior who has posted the proper explanation to the OP.

IF this had JUST been him posting "my teacher is a b****" and they suspended him, then y'all would be correct. THAT'S NOT THE CASE. READ.

Your insult is noted. I can read. I also have my own opinion. The fact that I disagree with you doesn't mean I don't understand what you are stating. But carry on. He was not the one carrying it around school. If he fights it, he may very well win. He has to decide if he wants to fight it. Your personal school handbook matters not unless he attended that school. You are NOT the ONLY senior who has posted the proper explanation at all. You defended the administration. You may have been the only one doing that and stating the administration's view but that does NOT mean you are more correct than the rest of us.

 

[stealth2]

The only reason I keep coming back to this thread, after being the only person who appropriately advised the OP, is to see what ridiculousness the seniors have posted here. And this is so, so, so sad that OG, Zig, And Tranq can't read.

I am seriously banging my head against the wall here. I am the ONLY senior who has posted the proper explanation to the OP.

Huh... Wonder if I stick this needle to the side of your head, if it would bust... being so inflated and all...

 

[dc$]

Sorry I took ages to come back, and wow this thread has gone crazy.
Someone asked public or private - yeah, public.
I'll be honest - I didn't look yet at any of the links that have been posted but thank you and I will.

Just to clear stuff up:
The school basically already knew what I said. And I agreed with them that it was basically right.
There wasn't some big crazy conversation on my facebook. Just people liking it and agreeing. No-one said anything 'hostile, defamatory, or aggressive'.
Not EVERYONE in school could see it. I don't think there's any screen captures - they didn't show up yet anyway.
The school knows I didn't do it during school time. Obviously they don't know if other people were on facebook liking it or anything during schooltime - but does that really have anything to do with me? I think they wanted to see who 'agreed' with what I said - why, so they can suspend them for having an opinion too??

I'm not reposting it all here. But basically what I said was "Mrs teacher = ...what I think of her (yeah, I called her a b****)"
I wrote it like a math equation cos she's a math teacher...and for some reason it was popular.
I don't think there was any slander or defamation but I can't 100% percent define those. Esp not when it's about writing stuff on your own facebook. And I didn't make any threats. Nothing sexual. And I don't think it was 'hate speech'. It was just stupid and disrespectful.

And I want to say again. You can't access facebook on school computers, so I didn't even post something out there that students could see or access at school. So if it 'came to school' - those people were breaking the rules over that to start with. I didn't grant the access for it to be seen at school. I didn't introduce it to school, other people did. I couldn't stop them doing that.
I mean, what if I said something at a party, or for some reason wrote that 'really smart' math equation I came up with on a piece of paper at a party - would I get in trouble at school for that if everyone was all, "hey, remember in the weekend"?

I still don't get it peoples. And I can see there's no simple answer...yet. I don't get how I 'disrupted the learning environment' or made it so other people couldn't learn just cos some people were saying some things.
In between when I posted it and when the AP wanted me - they looked like regular days to me. I learned stuff. How can I be learning stuff if I'm disrupting everyone else from learning?? I think it's the people who repeated it that were disruptive.

And I don't think it all disrupted the school 'so significantly'. I think the school just overreacted. I get why my parents were mad. But I still don't get the suspension thing.
I guess I won't end up fighting it, but I want to understand more of why they could do that - though it still seems very confusing!

 

[tranquility]

Oh my god, YOU didn't read it either? Sheesh, the seniors here.

This case is not one damn bit about free speech. It's about slander and making disorderly and threatening remarks about a teacher, for goodness sake.

You can SAY anything you want, anytime you want, but when you walk into a school, and you break their rules, you go home.

This kid's case is not like ANY of the cases that Tranq or Zig posted. DO YOU PEOPLE NOT GET THAT??????????

The only reason I keep coming back to this thread, after being the only person who appropriately advised the OP, is to see what ridiculousness the seniors have posted here. And this is so, so, so sad that OG, Zig, And Tranq can't read.

I am seriously banging my head against the wall here. I am the ONLY senior who has posted the proper explanation to the OP.

IF this had JUST been him posting "my teacher is a b****" and they suspended him, then y'all would be correct. THAT'S NOT THE CASE. READ.

We did. Apparently, you didn't. But, thanks for playing and confirming the stereotype of a school administrator.
For posterity:

I'm not reposting it all here. But basically what I said was "Mrs teacher = ...what I think of her (yeah, I called her a b****)"
I wrote it like a math equation cos she's a math teacher...and for some reason it was popular.
I don't think there was any slander or defamation but I can't 100% percent define those. Esp not when it's about writing stuff on your own facebook. And I didn't make any threats. Nothing sexual. And I don't think it was 'hate speech'. It was just stupid and disrespectful.

 

[tranquility]

To dc$, believe me everyone here has done exactly what you have done in our lives. And, almost assuredly, far worse. The difference is, we did it with a whisper to a friend or with a barbaric yalp with our posse, clique, group of malcontents/misfits/sport team--whatever. This newfangled interwebs thingy is confusing to us when a whisper/yalp to friends can be spread to all in a moment for them to do with as they will. We fear your power to communicate with anyone and everyone with ease with whatever you choose. An internet meme can change the world.

Personally? I don't think you did anything wrong. I think a part of growing up is learning to challenge authority appropriately. I think the public square is best place to make those challenges. Putting ideas out into the open....well, look at my signature quote. We can only hope when all look at things stupid is squashed and enlightened is lifted, even though we know with the nature of humankind the reverse can often happen because of petty issues. One price of freedom is you have to accept the problems with free speech if you want to savor the benefits. The problems are multiplied when speech can simultaneously reach an entire population—or appropriate sub-populations based on whatever criteria people self-divide. While I have grown up through the explosion of computers to the internet and have a pretty good understanding of the technical issues of how it all works, the sociological changes are simply not in my heart. I don't think anyone over a certain age understands how things are different today.

All that being said, there are many complications as well. Look at the cases I've cited and follow the relevant cases the courts cited too. If you read the three fairly recent Supreme Court cases regarding student speech, you'll find how the courts try to address the issue for everyone even before they know what the specific facts are of what happened when we ask similar questions later in life. You'll find the issues get down to if the speech is in school or out (and what that means) and what types of speech can be actionable by the school. (A good page with summaries [I recommend going to the actual cases, however.] is at: http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/studentspeech.htm ) The cool thing is, I GUARANTEE you could get a paper or research project out of it for some class. Think of it, homework which is fun! Not only that, you will learn much more. You will gain power. Use it well.

 

[Humusluvr]

Sorry I took ages to come back, and wow this thread has gone crazy.
Someone asked public or private - yeah, public.
I'll be honest - I didn't look yet at any of the links that have been posted but thank you and I will.

Just to clear stuff up:
The school basically already knew what I said. And I agreed with them that it was basically right.
There wasn't some big crazy conversation on my facebook. Just people liking it and agreeing. No-one said anything 'hostile, defamatory, or aggressive'.
Not EVERYONE in school could see it. I don't think there's any screen captures - they didn't show up yet anyway.
The school knows I didn't do it during school time. Obviously they don't know if other people were on facebook liking it or anything during schooltime - but does that really have anything to do with me? I think they wanted to see who 'agreed' with what I said - why, so they can suspend them for having an opinion too??

I'm not reposting it all here. But basically what I said was "Mrs teacher = ...what I think of her (yeah, I called her a b****)"

"Mrs Teacher = B****" is libel.

Here's the definition.

is the communication of a statement that makes a claim, expressly stated or implied to be factual, that may give an individual, business, product, group, government, or nation a negative image. This can be also any disparaging statement made by one person about another, which is communicated or published, whether true or false, depending on legal state.

I wrote it like a math equation cos she's a math teacher...and for some reason it was popular.
I don't think there was any slander or defamation but I can't 100% percent define those.

If you wikipedia'd them, you would see how your statement is libel.

Esp not when it's about writing stuff on your own facebook. And I didn't make any threats. Nothing sexual. And I don't think it was 'hate speech'. It was just stupid and disrespectful.

And I want to say again. You can't access facebook on school computers, so I didn't even post something out there that students could see or access at school. So if it 'came to school' - those people were breaking the rules over that to start with.

You can access FB from any mobile device. Students don't realize that it is still "during the school day" from their own phone.

I didn't grant the access for it to be seen at school. I didn't introduce it to school, other people did. I couldn't stop them doing that.

If you hadn't posted it, you wouldn't have had that problem. You DID post it, it belonged to you, hence - your problem.

I mean, what if I said something at a party, or for some reason wrote that 'really smart' math equation I came up with on a piece of paper at a party - would I get in trouble at school for that if everyone was all, "hey, remember in the weekend"?

Not the same. Not what happened.

I still don't get it peoples. And I can see there's no simple answer...yet. I don't get how I 'disrupted the learning environment' or made it so other people couldn't learn just cos some people were saying some things.
In between when I posted it and when the AP wanted me - they looked like regular days to me. I learned stuff. How can I be learning stuff if I'm disrupting everyone else from learning?? I think it's the people who repeated it that were disruptive.

And I don't think it all disrupted the school 'so significantly'. I think the school just overreacted. I get why my parents were mad. But I still don't get the suspension thing.
I guess I won't end up fighting it, but I want to understand more of why they could do that - though it still seems very confusing!

I get why you don't get it. But have you considered for one second how this made your teacher FEEL? Have you considered what your remark and the conversation posted by your friends could do to her professional reputation? The school HAD to act.

 

[Humusluvr]

Huh... Wonder if I stick this needle to the side of your head, if it would bust... being so inflated and all...

Not hardly. I will passionately argue when I'm right. Being right here hasn't inflated my head, it's made me more aware of how other people try to make arguments by cherry-picking their statement. Duly noted.