• FreeAdvice has a new Terms of Service and Privacy Policy, effective May 25, 2018.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our Terms of Service and use of cookies.

Is a school test the teacher's IP?

Accident - Bankruptcy - Criminal Law / DUI - Business - Consumer - Employment - Family - Immigration - Real Estate - Tax - Traffic - Wills   Please click a topic or scroll down for more.

Status
Not open for further replies.

I'mTheFather

Senior Member
Interesting...so if your daughter had copied the entire test by hand instead of using her phone that would have been perfectly acceptable to the teacher, but since your daughter used technology to copy it instead, that's a huge problem with the teacher?

There is some logic missing there...
Actually, there isn't. The bolded part below explains a lot.

Correct. Also, if every student in the class copied four questions by hand and took the notes home to study, they could recreate the test in its entirety and share it amongst themselves.
The teacher never intended for the entire test to be copied. Assuming there are 20 students in class, then there were 80 questions on the test. It wouldn't be possible to copy every question during class time. Most likely, the teacher expected students to make notes of their areas of weakness from the test in order to do better.

The teacher provided an opportunity for his students to improve their grades and OP's daughter took advantage of it. I bet he won't do it again.
 


OHRoadwarrior

Senior Member
Where I come from, it would be considered exercising personal ingenuity. It is the teachers fault if they did not clarify the terms of their license. This reminds me of the world finals of the First Robotics Championship. If one teams bot strikes opposing alliances robot, during autonomous period, the aggrieved robot is awarded 20 points. A few enterprising teams, after viewing movements of other robots, reprogrammed their bots to back into the area they expected an opponents bot to go. Bam - plus 20 points.

Actually, there isn't. The bolded part below explains a lot.



The teacher never intended for the entire test to be copied. Assuming there are 20 students in class, then there were 80 questions on the test. It wouldn't be possible to copy every question during class time. Most likely, the teacher expected students to make notes of their areas of weakness from the test in order to do better.

The teacher provided an opportunity for his students to improve their grades and OP's daughter took advantage of it. I bet he won't do it again.
 
Last edited:

I'mTheFather

Senior Member
Exercising personal ingenuity on a competitive playing field is great. I would imagine that the enterprising teams took full advantage of their opportunities for learning in order to be so successful in the competition.

The difference here is that this girl circumvented her learning to get an easy A. She didn't outwit the competition. She cheated.
 

OHRoadwarrior

Senior Member
We can agree to disagree. That apparently is the position the student and teacher are having. You call it cheating, I call it ingenuity. The teacher apparently did not clarify permissible copying methods.
 

royh

Junior Member
Sorry this reply is so long. I have some points to respond to. I hope spelling and grammar mistakes are few and far between.

I do not believe my daughter cheated. The teacher returned a test to his class for use as a study aid. He told them, "Do what you want with it. Return it to me before the end of the period." At our meeting yesterday, the principal stated that he had spoken to some of my daughter's classmates and they verified that the entire class was given access to the test and that the teacher had told them, "Do what you want with it." He then walked to the front of the room and sat at his desk.

In an email to my wife and I, the teacher made the following claims:

1) No student has EVER been allowed to take his tests out of his room.
2) Cell phones are not allowed in class per district policy.

We (wife, daughter, myself) have had one meeting with the grade level principal and one with the grade level principal and teacher.

Point 2 is definitely true. However, in our first meeting, the principal said, "If we enforced that rule we'd have a safe full of cell phones at the end of the day." So, at best, that rule is selectively enforced. My daughter would have had to have been holding her phone approximately one foot away from the page when the image was made. I would think a teacher so concerned about the integrity of his tests would have had his eyes on the activities of his students during this period. Apparently not. I suppose that it's possible that the teacher saw my daughter using her phone and didn't care. Pick your poison.

Point 1 is false. The teacher states in an email that he allows students to take home their folders which contain "quizzes, homework and bubble (scantron) sheets". A recent school-related activity took several students (~50) out of state for a period of one week. The students from this class who were going on the trip had the opportunity to choose to take a test that fell in that one week period before or after their trip. At least two of the students chose to take the test after the trip. Those students did not utilize a scantron sheet when they took the test upon their return. Want to hazard a guess as to what is sitting in these two students' class folders in lieu of the scantron sheets that every other student has in their folders? The completed exam, including answers. This teacher has no idea if this test has been shared. He knowingly gave up control of this test while accusing my daughter of violating his intellectual property rights. This teacher admitted during the second meeting that he "might have" let some students take copies of exams out of the room. My daughter stated at that point that she has seen them and that her classmate is willing to verify that the teacher allowed a copy of an exam to be taken home for use as a study aid. In an email, the teacher stated that my daughter gained an unfair advantage when she photographed the study aid in class.

This teacher takes a lazy approach to preparing his students for major exams. He does not lead pre-test reviews. He does not prepare a study guide. Instead, he hands out prior exams for students to "do whatever" with. My daughter is an exemplary student who has received a single B on a report card during her academic career. She is in every advanced course that is available to her. She is scheduled to take every AP class that is available to her next year. She is a peer mediator, a Red Cross certified lifeguard, a Red Cross certified babysitter, and a Girl Scout who expects to receive her Gold Award soon. My daughter is not a cheater. She is well-respected, highly motivated, and she trusts and respects her teachers.

At this point we have contacted the head principal. Another meeting is scheduled for next week.

tldr: Teacher stated students could "do whatever you want" with the prior exam represented as a study aid. Teacher has been caught in a lie regarding whether or not he has ever allowed a student to remove a test from his classroom. Progress is being made.

edit: Removed comment about "assumptions". If I don't give you the details you can only make assumptions.
 
Last edited:

royh

Junior Member
The teacher never intended for the entire test to be copied. Assuming there are 20 students in class, then there were 80 questions on the test. It wouldn't be possible to copy every question during class time. Most likely, the teacher expected students to make notes of their areas of weakness from the test in order to do better.
From his reaction, it seems reasonable that the teacher did not intend for the entire test to be copied. If I leave a bowl of candy bars at the end of my driveway during Halloween, my intention is probably that each trick-or-treater takes one bar. I could hire someone to distribute the candy but he or she might give two bars to their friends. I guess that if I wanted to be absolutely certain that my intentions were met, I would probably manage the candy distribution myself. If the teacher did not intend for the entire test to be copied, a good starting point would be to not give the test to the entire class. He might also lay some ground rules rather than saying, "Do what you want with it."

I guesstimated on the numbers I threw out. There are actually ~30 students in the class. The test was ~40 questions. I am not sure of the exact number because my daughter did not photograph the entire test. There were 5 images with ~7 questions on each. The highest numbered question I saw was 42. So, 30 students and 40 - 50 questions. Now, it would not be terribly difficult for a single student to copy the entire test in one period. It would be incredibly easy for an entire class to copy the entire test in one period.



The teacher provided an opportunity for his students to improve their grades and OP's daughter took advantage of it. I bet he won't do it again.
As he walked out of the second meeting, the teacher looked at my daughter and said, "I hope you realize you've ruined it for everyone." My personal thought is that by "everyone" he meant himself since I suppose he will now actually have to do part of his teaching job and come up with a real study aid.

Your later contention that my daughter "circumvented her learning" is laughable. A study guide is just that. It is not a list of answers. In order to properly use a study aid, you still have to LEARN the material it emphasizes!
 

quincy

Senior Member
From his reaction, it seems reasonable that the teacher did not intend for the entire test to be copied. If I leave a bowl of candy bars at the end of my driveway during Halloween, my intention is probably that each trick-or-treater takes one bar. I could hire someone to distribute the candy but he or she might give two bars to their friends. I guess that if I wanted to be absolutely certain that my intentions were met, I would probably manage the candy distribution myself. If the teacher did not intend for the entire test to be copied, a good starting point would be to not give the test to the entire class. He might also lay some ground rules rather than saying, "Do what you want with it."

I guesstimated on the numbers I threw out. There are actually ~30 students in the class. The test was ~40 questions. I am not sure of the exact number because my daughter did not photograph the entire test. There were 5 images with ~7 questions on each. The highest numbered question I saw was 42. So, 30 students and 40 - 50 questions. Now, it would not be terribly difficult for a single student to copy the entire test in one period. It would be incredibly easy for an entire class to copy the entire test in one period.





As he walked out of the second meeting, the teacher looked at my daughter and said, "I hope you realize you've ruined it for everyone." My personal thought is that by "everyone" he meant himself since I suppose he will now actually have to do part of his teaching job and come up with a real study aid.

Your later contention that my daughter "circumvented her learning" is laughable. A study guide is just that. It is not a list of answers. In order to properly use a study aid, you still have to LEARN the material it emphasizes!
Well, as I see it, your daughter violated school policy by having her cell phone in class - this whether the school policy is enforced on a regular basis or not. Cell phones are often used by students to cheat on tests. That is one reason why many teachers prohibit them in classes and many schools require cell phones be kept in lockers and only used before or after school.

The intellectual property argument the teacher is throwing out is not one that will go anywhere (he would need to register his test before suing anyone and he would need to demonstrate damages), but that does not mean he does not have rights that your daughter violated.

I agree with the teacher that your daughter has probably "ruined it" for everyone, as the teacher will probably not be making tests available for studying again - or at least during the time your daughter is in his class or in the school. Your daughter has also made the school aware that cell phones are being used in the class against school policy, and they may now start enforcing this policy to prevent future problems.

So, yes, it is probably true that your daughter has ruined it for everyone who actually used the old tests as a study aid and worked during the class hour to better learn the material (instead of just spending a couple of minutes of the class hour to photograph the test ;)) or for everyone who used cell phones in class despite the policy banning them from the classrooms. So much for texting friends during class. :)

With all of that said, I find your last two posts curious. Even rules (and laws) that are not enforced still need to be obeyed, and I hope you are stressing that to your daughter. Just because you can get away with breaking a rule or a law does not mean you are not violating that rule or that law and cannot be punished if you are caught.

This is true in your daughter's case whether your daughter is the only one caught violating a school policy or the only one who must face the consequences of her violation.

It sounds as if the teacher has over-reacted, certainly, and the teacher has probably been wrong in the way he has handled the photographing of the test, but your daughter is not entirely blameless.

During the upcoming meetings over this matter, I would keep that fact in your mind at all times.
 
Last edited:

I'mTheFather

Senior Member
From his reaction, it seems reasonable that the teacher did not intend for the entire test to be copied. If I leave a bowl of candy bars at the end of my driveway during Halloween, my intention is probably that each trick-or-treater takes one bar. I could hire someone to distribute the candy but he or she might give two bars to their friends. I guess that if I wanted to be absolutely certain that my intentions were met, I would probably manage the candy distribution myself. If the teacher did not intend for the entire test to be copied, a good starting point would be to not give the test to the entire class. He might also lay some ground rules rather than saying, "Do what you want with it."

I guesstimated on the numbers I threw out. There are actually ~30 students in the class. The test was ~40 questions. I am not sure of the exact number because my daughter did not photograph the entire test. There were 5 images with ~7 questions on each. The highest numbered question I saw was 42. So, 30 students and 40 - 50 questions. Now, it would not be terribly difficult for a single student to copy the entire test in one period. It would be incredibly easy for an entire class to copy the entire test in one period.





As he walked out of the second meeting, the teacher looked at my daughter and said, "I hope you realize you've ruined it for everyone." My personal thought is that by "everyone" he meant himself since I suppose he will now actually have to do part of his teaching job and come up with a real study aid.

Your later contention that my daughter "circumvented her learning" is laughable. A study guide is just that. It is not a list of answers. In order to properly use a study aid, you still have to LEARN the material it emphasizes!
Your ethics sadden me.
 

royh

Junior Member
Well, as I see it, your daughter violated school policy by having her cell phone in class - this whether the school policy is enforced on a regular basis or not. Cell phones are often used by students to cheat on tests. That is one reason why many teachers prohibit them in classes and many schools require cell phones be kept in lockers and only used before or after school.
She absolutely broke school policy and we are prepared to allow her to take punishment for that offense. In fact, after we returned the phone to her we told her that she was not to use the phone in class again. As far as we know, she hasn't. Now, if the rule was actually enforced, and she was caught we would know for sure.

The intellectual property argument the teacher is throwing out is not one that will go anywhere (he would need to register his test before suing anyone and he would need to demonstrate damages), but that does not mean he does not have rights that your daughter violated.
This is no longer a concern of mine.

I agree with the teacher that your daughter has probably "ruined it" for everyone, as the teacher will probably not be making tests available for studying again - or at least during the time your daughter is in his class or in the school. Your daughter has also made the school aware that cell phones are being used in the class against school policy, and they may now start enforcing this policy to prevent future problems.

So, yes, it is probably true that your daughter has ruined it for everyone who actually used the old tests as a study aid and worked during the class hour to better learn the material (instead of just spending a couple of minutes of the class hour to photograph the test ;)) or for everyone who used cell phones in class despite the policy banning them from the classrooms. So much for texting friends during class. :)
So she has helped at least one teacher to grow within his chosen profession and do the work he is being paid for? And she has helped the district become more aware of the fact that they need to enforce all of their policies? Nothing wrong with that!


With all of that said, I find your last two posts curious. Even rules (and laws) that are not enforced still need to be obeyed, and I hope you are stressing that to your daughter. Just because you can get away with breaking a rule or a law does not mean you are not violating that rule or that law and cannot be punished if you are caught.

This is true in your daughter's case whether your daughter is the only one caught violating a school policy or the only one who must face the consequences of her violation.

It sounds as if the teacher has over-reacted, certainly, and the teacher has probably been wrong in the way he has handled the photographing of the test, but your daughter is not entirely blameless.

During the upcoming meetings over this matter, I would keep that fact in your mind at all times.
I believe that my daughter is now aware that using her cell phone in the classroom was wrong. We told her that she was wrong when she did this five months ago. She has been in three meetings with school administration with another on the horizon. She has been informed that I fully support punishment for using her cellphone in class. I have informed her that, in future, she should copy any notes from "study guides" that she is not allowed to remove from the room (unless she has been on a school trip recently) by hand.
 

OHRoadwarrior

Senior Member
2) Cell phones are not allowed in class per district policy.
So now I must change my assessment. The teachers guidance was made with the assumption school policy would be followed. To give a parallel analogy, think of a restaurant, where alcohol may be consumed at their tables on the sidewalk. A police officer walks up and someone is sitting at the table drinking moonshine. They are soooo busted. Now it is time to negotiate her punishment and not lobby for her rights.
 

I'mTheFather

Senior Member
Your (apparently) unmonitored access to a computer and the internet saddens me.
Really? Why? Is it because I recognize your lack of moral compass? Or is it because I see your attempts to justify your daughter's actions by placing the blame on the teacher?

In what other areas of your life do you skirt the true intent of rules and laws to justify your actions?
 

royh

Junior Member
So now I must change my assessment. The teachers guidance was made with the assumption school policy would be followed. To give a parallel analogy, think of a restaurant, where alcohol may be consumed at their tables on the sidewalk. A police officer walks up and someone is sitting at the table drinking moonshine. They are soooo busted. Now it is time to negotiate her punishment and not lobby for her rights.
I agree that she should be punished for using her cellphone in class. That is the only explicitly stated district or classroom policy or rule that she broke.
 

OHRoadwarrior

Senior Member
I agree that she should be punished for using her cellphone in class. That is the only explicitly stated district or classroom policy or rule that she broke.
She cheated, by using a technology not authorized for the conditions presented by the teacher.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Find the Right Lawyer for Your Legal Issue!

Fast, Free, and Confidential
data-ad-format="auto">
Top