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Questioing the integrity

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leventhal

Junior Member
What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? FL

My neighbor filed a civil lawsuit on me accusing me of posting bad comments from my home computer against him. The court asked me to submit my home computer to a local forensic company and instructed that company to submit a copy of that forensic image to a well known (third party) forensic expert in New York within one month. Although the local forensic company claimed that they have collected the forensic image of my computer (I submitted my computer to them), they did not submit a copy of the forensic image to the New York forensic expert as instructed by the court and it is already three months past the court given deadline. I sent few reminders to the local forensic company. The local forensic company is saying that they are busy that is why they could not send the forensic image to the New York expert. I have serious doubts about the integrity of the forensic image that is in the exclusive custody of the local forensic company.

During the trial, I would like to argue that the forensic image and its contents and any analysis or results from that forensic image are no longer acceptable to me because it was not submitted to the New York expert, before the court given deadline. Please let me know your feedback on the merit of my argument.
 
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quincy

Senior Member
What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? FL

My neighbor filed a civil lawsuit on me accusing me of posting bad comments from my home computer against him. The court asked me to submit my home computer to a local non-profit forensic organization and instructed that organization to submit a copy of that forensic image to a well known (third party) forensic expert in New York within one month. Although the local non-profit forensic organization claimed that they have collected the forensic image of my computer, they did not submit a copy of the forensic image to the New York forensic expert as instructed by the court and it is already two months past the court given deadline. I have serious doubts about the integrity of the forensic image that is in the exclusive custody of the local non-profit forensic organization.

During the trial, can I argue that the forensic image is no longer acceptable to me because it was not submitted to the New York expert, before the court given deadline?
Yes, you can argue that. If the court agrees that the forensic image is no longer acceptable, though, be prepared for the court to order another forensic exam.

Good luck with your court case.
 

leventhal

Junior Member
Thanks Quincy and I appreciate.

FYI: I no longer have that computer as I lost it recently and I filed a complaint with police.

How much merit is there is my argument and what are the possible outcomes from the court? The entire case depends on the forensic image.
 
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quincy

Senior Member
Thanks Quincy and I appreciate.

I no longer have that computer as I lost it recently and I filed a complaint with police.

How much merit is there is my argument and what are the possible outcomes from the court?
I personally do not see much merit in your argument, if with your argument you are trying to state or imply that the forensic image was tampered with or the contents of your computer was compromised in some way. But there is no telling what a court will decide.

And, if that is all you have in the way of defense to whatever it is that might be found on your computer, I suppose it is worth a try.

You might want to seriously consider having an attorney assist you, though, leventhal. If a forensic examination of your computer was ordered by the court, this stands to be a costly lawsuit for you to lose. An attorney might be able to help you fashion a defense that could work to mitigate damages.
 

leventhal

Junior Member
Thanks once again Quincy and I appreciate.

In fact, I sent few emails to the local forensic company asking them to expedite sending the image to the New York expert. They responded back saying that they are busy. After a while, at one point, the local company emailed me that I never even submitted my computer to them therefore it was my mistake: a strange U-turn. Then I produced a copy of the receipt that they gave to me when I submitted the computer to them. Then they took another U-turn emailing me that it was their mistake and that I did submit it. Now they are stating that they will submit it “soon”.

All these U-turns, lack of hash code, failure to submit the image on time to New York expert, etc. made me to believe that something fishy going one. I believe that the Judge or jury has reasonable ground to believe that the forensic image (or its contents) is suspicious at best.

Hope this specific/new information may help you provide a refined answer.

FYI: The local company did not even give me a hash code (if I had the hash code of the forensic image then if the forensic image is altered then I can prove that it is altered).
 

quincy

Senior Member
Thanks once again Quincy and I appreciate.

In fact, I sent few emails to the local forensic company asking them to expedite sending the image to the New York expert. They responded back saying that they are busy. After a while, at one point, the local company emailed me that I never even submitted my computer to them therefore it was my mistake: a strange U-turn. Then I produced a copy of the receipt that they gave to me when I submitted the computer to them. Then they took another U-turn emailing me that it was their mistake and that I did submit it. Now they are stating that they will submit it �soon�.

All these U-turns, lack of hash code, failure to submit the image on time to New York expert, etc. made me to believe that something fishy going one. I believe that the Judge or jury has reasonable ground to believe that the forensic image (or its contents) is suspicious at best.

Hope this specific/new information may help you provide a refined answer.

FYI: The local company did not even give me a hash code (if I had the hash code of the forensic image then if the forensic image is altered then I can prove that it is altered).
An expert computer forensic exam can reveal a lot. There will be evidence of tampering.

While I have my doubts that your local company would risk their reputation by tampering with evidence entrusted to them for use in a trial, I guess you can attempt to argue that the local company made mistakes that calls into question the evidence retrieved from your computer. You should have evidence to support your contention, however. Believing "something fishy is going on" is not on its own very convincing.

I fear the fact that you recently lost your computer could work against you.

Again, I recommend you seek out the help of an attorney in your area. It sounds as if you are in desperate need of some assistance working on a defense.

Good luck.
 

leventhal

Junior Member
Thanks Quincy and I appreciate once again and will seek an attorney. This form is helping me (and many people) to educate themselves therefore I am continue posting on this matter. I clearly understood that the responses are just opinions.

I did my good faith efforts and sent reminders by emails (I have proofs) to the local company to send it to NY and they have replied to some of my emails (I have proofs). I have email proofs on this local company's U-turns. Changing something in a computer hardly takes a minute but the local company did not submit the forensic image 3 months after the deadline. Losing my computer is not human error (due to fire in the entire apartment complex because gas pipe exploded therefore many valuables are lost by many families).
 
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quincy

Senior Member
Thanks Quincy and I appreciate once again and will seek an attorney. This form is helping me (and many people) to educate themselves therefore I am continue posting on this matter. I clearly understood that the responses are just opinions.

I did my good faith efforts and sent reminders by emails (I have proofs) to the local company to send it to NY and they have replied to some of my emails (I have proofs). Changing something in a computer hardly takes a minute but the local company did not submit the forensic image 3 months after the deadline. Losing my computer is not human error (due to fire in the entire apartment complex because gas pipe exploded therefore many valuables are lost by many families).
Regardless of how your computer was lost, the fact that your computer's content is the current subject of a civil action and you no longer have it does not work in your favor. In case the court accepts your argument and orders another examination of your computer, I hope you have good proof that your apartment was affected by a gas pipe explosion and your computer was one of the casualties.

The emails you have do not seem to prove mishandling or poor preservation of your computer data by the forensics lab. And it is a good bet that the investigators will certify the authenticity and the integrity of the data. But I guess you need to use what you have to try to keep the computer exam results from being allowed as evidence in the trial, if to allow the evidence works against you.

I am glad to hear you will be consulting with an attorney in your area. I think that is smart.

I am sorry to hear about the gas explosion in your apartment complex, leventhal. That must have been scary. I hope no one was injured.
 

I'mTheFather

Senior Member
Why would you file a police report for a computer lost due to a gas explosion?

(The phrasing used and the basic situation described remind me of a couple of previous threads under different usernames. ;))
 

leventhal

Junior Member
Thank you once again Quincy, I appreciate. The local forensic company did not follow the court order, period. Therefore, there is violation of court order. Therefore, the existing forensic image (with the local company) is not qualified for the purpose it was collected. Let the local forensic company pay the penalty (to the plaintiff) for their violation.

The local forensic company can argue that nothing is tampered or altered from the forensic image: they can do this if and only if the computer is available and comparisons between the contents of the forensic image and the contents of the computer are made. However, the computer is no longer available. Without comparison (and without any hash code or security code that changes if tampering happens), how can they prove if it is tampered or not? Who knows, the forensic image was affected by some virus or something else during the last few months, apart from intentional alterations, when it is with local forensic company. Therefore, there is a reasonable doubt about the integrity of the forensic image.

Thanks to I'mTheFather. The phrasing may be similar for some people who are from the same ethnic or linguistic background and whose primary language is not English (I knew thousands of people who writes English in the way I writes). Similarly, there can be several similar cases and lawsuits. If the phrasing creates any issue, I can ask my friend to prepare my questions. The police are investigating the explosion. To avoid telling fire accident details (Which I thought were unnecessary at that time), earlier, I simply said that I filed a police case. Sorry for the confusion.
 
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Zigner

Senior Member, Non-Attorney
Thank you once again Quincy, I appreciate. The local forensic company did not follow the court order, period. Therefore, there is violation of court order. Therefore, the existing forensic image (with the local company) is not qualified for the purpose it was collected. Let the local forensic company pay the penalty (to the plaintiff) for their violation.
Your logic is faulty. The quality of the forensic image does not degrade just because it wasn't forwarded in the time period required by the court.

The local forensic company can argue that nothing is tampered or altered from the forensic image: they can do this if and only if the computer is available and comparisons between the contents of the forensic image and the contents of the computer are made. However, the computer is no longer available. Without comparison (and without any hash code or security code that changes if tampering happens), how can they prove if it is tampered or not? Who knows, the forensic image was affected by some virus or something else during the last few months, apart from intentional alterations, when it is with local forensic company. Therefore, there is a reasonable doubt about the integrity of the forensic image.
The local company won't argue anything. It's not their place to do so. All they will have to do is submit their report.
 

Zigner

Senior Member, Non-Attorney
...I simply said that I filed a police case. Sorry for the confusion.
Why would YOU file anything with the police? They are already investigating. It's already beginning to sound suspicious. It seems that you have a motive... I would avoid talking to anyone about the explosion with legal counsel present.
 

leventhal

Junior Member
Thanks Zigner

>> The quality of the forensic image does not degrade just because it wasn't forwarded in the time period required by the court.

Yes, it can degrade if it is modified. More time means more ways to do changes and more ways to coverup.

>> Why would YOU file anything with the police?

I already answered (please read once again): I did not file case. The police are involved with the explosion case that's all.
 

Zigner

Senior Member, Non-Attorney
Yes, it can degrade if it is modified. More time means more ways to do changes and more ways to coverup.
That is not a case of the image degrading. You seem to state that, because it's been a long time, the image may have changed. Tampering and degradation are two entirely separate things.
 

leventhal

Junior Member
>> That is not a case of the image degrading. You seem to state that, because it's been a long time, the image may have changed. Tampering and degradation are two entirely separate things.

Sorry for my poorly worded statement and thanks for your input.
More time means more ways to do tampering and more ways to coverup the tampering. Time is one of the key reasons why the court gave a specific deadline to the local company to submit the image to NY expert.
 
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