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Cease and desist letter response

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Frtransinc

Junior Member
I sold products (approx 10)on eBay which I purchased legally.auction was taken down,I received a cease and desist letter via regular mail saying I violated their copyright and was selling counterfeit products.Rather than just blow off the letter since it was not sent certified mail I chose to do the right thing and respond via email to the letter saying that I removed the auction and didn't plan to relist the items,& that I don't plan on selling their product via eBay or by any other means.I only had a handful of the items in question, the ones I sold netted less than $150.I received an email saying that I need to call since this is not a legal resolution.Could someone provide me with the format so I can draft a letter and send it to them. I know that the only reason they want me to call is to try and get me to give them money, I'd rather try and avoid this since I don't feel I did anything wrong and wouldn't throw money at a problem to make it go away.
 


FlyingRon

Senior Member
What on earth makes you think "certified" mail means squat in this situation. What makes you think it's even necessary to respond to this? If they've VERO'd your auction, go forth and sin no more.
 

Frtransinc

Junior Member
Why?

as you can see had you read my post that I planned on going forth and sinning no more, my reasoning for bringing up "certified " mail was because I'm sure most people would throw the letter in the garbage. And as for why I would even respond also if you refer to my OP you would see that I did respond, and I posted asking for help with the specific situation that I am in. But I am all too familiar with the "forum" game and I'm glad that I could provide you with the opportunity to provide no helpful information and at the same time boost your total number of responses.
 

quincy

Senior Member
I sold products (approx 10)on eBay which I purchased legally.auction was taken down,I received a cease and desist letter via regular mail saying I violated their copyright and was selling counterfeit products.Rather than just blow off the letter since it was not sent certified mail I chose to do the right thing and respond via email to the letter saying that I removed the auction and didn't plan to relist the items,& that I don't plan on selling their product via eBay or by any other means.I only had a handful of the items in question, the ones I sold netted less than $150.I received an email saying that I need to call since this is not a legal resolution.Could someone provide me with the format so I can draft a letter and send it to them. I know that the only reason they want me to call is to try and get me to give them money, I'd rather try and avoid this since I don't feel I did anything wrong and wouldn't throw money at a problem to make it go away.
Are you sure the cease and desist letter you received was to notify you of a copyright violation and not a trademark violation? Counterfeit goods are generally an infringement on trademark rights and not on copyrights.

If the products you were selling were counterfeits ("legally purchased" or not), the notice you received (to cease selling the products and to refrain from selling them again) may be the end of this matter for you, as long as you remove the items from the auction site and do not sell the products again. But the cease and desist letter could also be the introduction to another legal action to come.

Did the notice you received include a demand to settle the infringement for X amount of dollars and was it from the rights-holder or a law firm representing the rights-holder? If the cease and desist included a settlement demand, you will want to consult with an attorney in your area for the best response to the letter. Do not pay to settle until you have any demand for money personally reviewed by the attorney.

Although your sales "netted less than $150," the damages that can be awarded a trademark or copyright owner can be high.

Good luck.
 

Frtransinc

Junior Member
You are correct it was trademark not copyright. They didn't ask me for any amount of money. They only asked me to contact them by a certain date to settle the matter. I was hoping to basically send them the promise of not selling any more items ever by any means. I was told that my email was not sufficient and that I needed to call them. I am sure they want me to call to try and get some sort of financial settlement, and/or to try and trip me up and make me sound like I did something wrong when I don't believe I did. Does anyone have a link to a sample of what this document would look like.
 

Zigner

Senior Member, Non-Attorney
You are correct it was trademark not copyright. They didn't ask me for any amount of money. They only asked me to contact them by a certain date to settle the matter. I was hoping to basically send them the promise of not selling any more items ever by any means. I was told that my email was not sufficient and that I needed to call them. I am sure they want me to call to try and get some sort of financial settlement, and/or to try and trip me up and make me sound like I did something wrong when I don't believe I did. Does anyone have a link to a sample of what this document would look like.
I have to assume that these ARE, in fact, counterfeit items, right?

Your request is beyond the scope of this forum. I would suggest that you consult with local legal counsel tor review your matter and to help you draft the document you are contemplating.
 

quincy

Senior Member
You are correct it was trademark not copyright. They didn't ask me for any amount of money. They only asked me to contact them by a certain date to settle the matter. I was hoping to basically send them the promise of not selling any more items ever by any means. I was told that my email was not sufficient and that I needed to call them. I am sure they want me to call to try and get some sort of financial settlement, and/or to try and trip me up and make me sound like I did something wrong when I don't believe I did. Does anyone have a link to a sample of what this document would look like.
If you removed the counterfeit items from the auction site and you do not attempt to sell counterfeit items in the future, you do not have to do anything more than this. The notice was (apparently) to cease and desist and you ceased and desisted.

I suggest that you do not call them. If they want to settle with you financially, they will need to send a settlement demand letter and/or a summons and complaint indicating you are being sued for infringement. It appears that you can wait for the rights-holder to make the next move - and it would be unusual for the next move to be by phone call.

But I am suggesting the above without having seen the notice you received or seeing who the notice is from or really knowing the extent of your infringement. If you are marketing counterfeit goods on a regular basis, you could be in a whole mess of trouble and it is then likely that only an attorney in your area will be able to get you out of it.

To be on the safe side, have the notice you received personally reviewed by a trademark attorney in your area who can advise you on what to do next. If a response letter needs to be sent, the attorney can help you draft one. I do not think the attorney will advise that you call or send anything to the rights-holder, though - but I could be wrong.

Good luck.
 

justalayman

Senior Member
Quincy;

Does not the rights holder have the right to seek op relinquish any counterfeit merchandise in their possession to the rights holder and in fact have a right to request, and if not complied with sue for, damages due to the irreversible violation of their trademark?

While I understand your advice to not initiate an attempt to settle the matter, if I understand your teachings over the years, there is not much the op can do to avoid a financial settlement should the rights holder wish to push the issue.

It also appears it is possible to criminally charge the violator with a first offender subject to up to a $2,000,000 fine and up to 10 years in prison. I wouldn't think the op would be subject to anything so oppressive for a first time offense concerning a minimal amount of product but as you mentioned, if this is only the tip of the iceburg who knows how large of an operation op is involved with.
 

quincy

Senior Member
Quincy;

Does not the rights holder have the right to seek op relinquish any counterfeit merchandise in their possession to the rights holder and in fact have a right to request, and if not complied with sue for, damages due to the irreversible violation of their trademark?
The trademark holder can demand all sorts of things but the trademark holder will need to seek a court order to have all counterfeit items held by the counterfeiter seized and destroyed. The trademark holder can also sue to recover all profits made by the counterfeiter, or treble the damages suffered by the trademark holder, as a result of the infringement. Plus attorney fees.

Counterfeits cause, by their very nature, consumer confusion. The whole purpose of marketing counterfeits is to fool consumers into thinking the counterfeit product is an original. Because consumer confusion is almost always a given when dealing with counterfeits, a successful trademark infringement suit can be pursued against a counterfeiter with far less difficulty than might be the case with other trademark infringement suits.

While I understand your advice to not initiate an attempt to settle the matter, if I understand your teachings over the years, there is not much the op can do to avoid a financial settlement should the rights holder wish to push the issue.
It can be hard for a true counterfeiter to avoid having to pay a trademark holder, either through a settlement or through a court action. It depends on the trademark holder, however, how much time, effort and money they are willing to spend on an individual who has only sold a few items (compared to a counterfeiter who is marketing hundreds of counterfeit items on a wide scale basis). The trademark holder might be more interested in having the few items pulled from the market although they might want to work with the small-time seller to find out the identity of the main supplier of the counterfeit goods.

Sometimes an online seller will sell a counterfeit item that they perhaps purchased from a garage sale or from the back of a truck. It is still a counterfeit item they are selling, and the item can be pulled from its place online, but the trademark holder will often do little past the cease and desist letter - unless they see the seller as a regular seller of counterfeit goods.

From what Frtransinc has said, he purchased items "legally," which could mean he was unaware they were counterfeits. This does not excuse the infringement, but it can be a mitigating factor.

It also appears it is possible to criminally charge the violator with a first offender subject to up to a $2,000,000 fine and up to 10 years in prison. I wouldn't think the op would be subject to anything so oppressive for a first time offense concerning a minimal amount of product but as you mentioned, if this is only the tip of the iceburg who knows how large of an operation op is involved with.
The Department of Justice will be involved with counterfeiters who operate on a large-scale basis. These counterfeiters are the ones who are likely to wind up with hefty fines and doing some time in prison.

I don't, by the way, advise that Frtransinc do nothing. He should have the notice he received personally reviewed by a trademark attorney if/when money is demanded. He should not blindly pay any demand that is made and I don't believe he needs to make any effort to contact the trademark holder. Frtransinc needs to be sure first that the cease and desist letter, and any future demands that are made, are from a legitimate source who holds legitimate rights. Because trademark holders can lose rights if they are not aggressive in stopping infringers from infringing on their marks, some trademark holders will try to assert rights even when there has been no infringement and they actually have no rights to assert.
 

justalayman

Senior Member
My only comment is to your statement the products were obtained legally and therefore may have not been aware of them being counterfeit


My take on that;

I bought them from a Chinese online marketer and they were so cheap I should have realized they were not official products.


You have said yourself, claimed ignorance is not a valid defense when a reasonable person would suspect the situation as not being on the up and up.
 

quincy

Senior Member
My only comment is to your statement the products were obtained legally and therefore may have not been aware of them being counterfeit


My take on that;

I bought them from a Chinese online marketer and they were so cheap I should have realized they were not official products.


You have said yourself, claimed ignorance is not a valid defense when a reasonable person would suspect the situation as not being on the up and up.
Right. Ignorance does not excuse either copyright infringement or trademark infringement. But "innocent" infringement can be used as a defense to mitigate (lessen) damages should someone be sued and lose the lawsuit.

It is perhaps unlikely that Frntransinc could claim innocent infringement if he purchased and sold at least ten counterfeit items and pulled these items from online upon notification. He seems to be aware that his items were counterfeits. And one or two items being sold could perhaps be seen as innocent but ten might be pushing the limits of ignorance a bit too far.

That said, it can depend on what the items were that Frntransinc was selling online and where he is claiming to have legally purchased them. There have been some legitimate retailers who were discovered selling counterfeits, at prices far below what the originals items would sell for. If Frntransinc went to one of these retailers and purchased "bargain priced" items thinking they were originals and believing he could sell them for more online, then innocent infringement might come into play.

Facts matter, which is why Frntransinc would probably be smart to do nothing with the cease and desist letter other than what he has done, which is to cease and desist his sales. If a demand for money is made (and this will probably not be made by phone call or email), a personal review of the cease and desist letter and any subsequent communications from the trademark holder, and a look into the trademark holder who is claiming infringement, and a review of any other relevant facts, will be best done by a trademark attorney in Frntransinc's area.

This personal review will provide Frntransinc with advice on how to best to address the trademark holder. I would not pay anything that the trademark holder demands until there is this personal review.
 

Frtransinc

Junior Member
The items that I sold were not counterfeit. This letter came out of left field. I think that this must happen all the time. A few years back I had a couple PlayStation 2 consoles. They came with wired controllers, I and my children preferred wireless controllers. So I purchased wireless controllers from a local game store and put the original wired controllers that came with the PS2s. On eBay. There were a few maybe 4 controllers I was selling. The listings were removed from eBay because of some sort of violation of a trademark or copyright ordeal. I don't recall the exact details but it was similar to this current situation that has come up. I can understand not knowing that the items are counterfeit wouldn't be a valid defense but my defense is that these were genuine items. And I thought that as long as you are selling legitimate items, that were purchased legally. I have the right to re sell them. Unless I'm reading it incorrectly didn't the Supreme Court rule that if you bought it you own it?
 

Frtransinc

Junior Member
What would be their reasoning behind insisting I make a phone call to them? Is this to somehow try and intimidate or threaten me? Wouldn't this have to be put in writing anyway?
 

justalayman

Senior Member
So why not simply tell the mark owner they are not counterfeit and off to allow them to inspect your inventory to determine if for themselves? If they weren't counterfeit there is nothing to be concerned with.
 

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