Legal right to be informed? (threats of school shooting)

[quincy]

It's probable I'll get a pink slip (if not directly getting fired) if I do defy the administrator, and I'd like to be able to say I don't care, but I do. There aren't any other jobs around here. So I will be honest, that's a factor. If I am pink slipped, or even fired, and FERPA does in fact back up the administrator's actions, I don't see how I can fight it and win.

That said, the alternative, to continue going to work, not tell anyone, etc., is unimaginable to me. They are making the decision whether to expel on Monday, and the administrator has made it clear he will not be giving out any updates about it, so I'm not sure when I'll hear about it. But it seems from the way he's behaving and talking that he's not going to go for expulsion. I don't know what to do. Though I am going to see whether my colleague can get a restraining order on the student. She was the second person he made the threats to, so maybe there's a chance. I don't know if she'll want to do it, though. That would put a huge target on her back, too.

HSteacher1, didn't you say in your first post that the student made his threats in two separate classrooms in front of students (although I think you said "student" without the "s")?

If the student made his threats in front or within earshot of others, he has made his threats public. Nothing can prevent those who were present in the classrooms from identifying the student and telling others what he said (as long as what is reported sticks to the truth). There would be no confidences broken and no privacy invaded and no FERPA violated.

Here is a link to California's education code (scroll to 48900.7 for terroristic threats): http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=edc&group=48001-49000&file=48900-48927

 

[Silverplum]

Teachers knew, personal knowledge, that a screwup student was coming to Arapahoe High School to kill a teacher. They waited to tell/discuss until the Official Meeting the next day.

Claire Davis is dead. Not coming back. http://www.cnn.com/2013/12/14/us/colorado-school-shooting/

I don't know what else to write.

 

[HSteacher1]

HSteacher1, didn't you say in your first post that the student made his threats in two separate classrooms in front of students (although I think you said "student" without the "s")?

If the student made his threats in front or within earshot of others, he has made his threats public. Nothing can prevent those who were present in the classrooms from identifying the student and telling others what he said (as long as what is reported sticks to the truth). There would be no confidences broken and no privacy invaded and no FERPA violated.

Here is a link to California's education code (scroll to 48900.7 for terroristic threats): http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=edc&group=48001-49000&file=48900-48927

Yes. The student made the threat twice, in two different classrooms. There were other students present both times. So if I'm understanding you, there can be no expectation of privacy. Is that correct?

I read the ed code, but I am upset about this whole thing and on my best days I struggle to understand legal language. So I'm never sure if I'm interpreting things correctly. My husband and I are going to call the regional union guy tomorrow and see what he says.

The decision re: expulsion has not yet been made, and the principal has told us he will not be sharing any info about it as the various steps are taken, so I'm basically going to be in the dark until... I don't know. When there's a leak or maybe until Thursday, when the student would be returning from suspension. I'm hoping I'm not hearing things right and the principal actually is going to recommend suspension and call the board meeting necessary, etc. But that's not how things are looking.

If the student is allowed to return to campus, I am seriously considering informing the local newspaper of the whole situation.

 

[I'mTheFather]

I'm very surprised that no one outside the school knows if it was said in front of 2 classes.

(I missed that in the original post somehow. It doesn't change my answer.)

 

[quincy]

Here is a link to a case from the Ninth Circuit on threats in school (Lovell v. Poway Unified School District, 90 F.3d 367, 9th Cir 1996): http://openjurist.org/90/f3d/367/lovell-lovell-v-poway-unified-school-district

And here is a link to California's Penal Code, Section 422, on criminal threats of violence: http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=pen&group=00001-01000&file=422-422.4

What needs to be determined before any student is vilified or defamed is whether the threats made by the student were "true threats" or not. While I certainly understand Silverplum's comments and I believe no student in any school in the country at this point does not know how seriously threats of violence are taken (even threats made in misguided jest), I also know that everyone deserves to be judged fairly.

That said, if the threats are made openly to others as they were apparently here (or if they are made online), there is nothing that protects them from being communicated to others - and I would be very much surprised if those in the classrooms who heard the threats have not already passed on what they heard (to other students, to parents, to teachers).

The meetings of school officials to discuss the student and what steps to take should remain private.

 

[Silverplum]

It's important to note that I am NOT an attorney. Attorneys here have advised you on ferpa.

I'm a Coloradoan. I don't believe in following stupid people over the cliff. Ferp them.

eta: Maybe try this resource from my state, ask for help.
http://safe2tell.org/what-can-you-do/frequently-asked-questions/

 

[CdwJava]

As a teacher, you SHOULD NOT release a student's name to the public concerning this incident. You can and probably will lose your job if you do so - and rightly so. Unless you know all the facts, you would be taking a knee-jerk action that could cause irreparable harm not only to your career, but, possibly to an innocent (or merely disturbed or stupid) student.

I have been part of interdisciplinary teams conducting evaluations of reports like these including ones allegedly made in front of classes full of students. What I have frequently found is that the rumor and innuendo develop a life of its own and the story that finally gets spread about is very often not anywhere near the truth.

The threats/comments apparently were reported, and properly so. It is then up to the school to take the appropriate action concerning the student. This CAN include notifying staff of the student and his presence, or alerting them to his suspension/expulsion and the nature of the threats should he return to campus. But, that's not a decision for a teacher to make ... at least not if the teacher wants to keep his or her job and avoid a potential lawsuit. If the police investigated and found nothing to support any criminal charges, then the school is left to act within the law and its own policies. It may well be that the nature of the comments does not rise to an expulsion event. It may also be that the student has an IEP which addresses such outbursts and that can further tie the school's hands in how they might address stupid comments. And EC 48900.7 may not apply here - that would depend on what was actually said. he would generally have to make an overt threat to commit a crime that would result in injury or death to others at the school. If the comments were out of anger and something less specific or overt, like, "Someone oughta come here and shoot this place up! Maybe I should!" then that may not be seen as meeting that definition. The threat has almost identical elements as criminal threats under our Penal Code (422) in that it requires an unequivocal, immediate, and unconditional threat in order to be applicable. This is a high bar.

In years past my local high school was in an advantageous position as I was both on staff at the high school as a teacher AND a police sergeant with the local PD and assigned to the local assessment team. That made it easy to interact directly with the school administration. And while many incidents were relayed to staff for their safety and to put extra eyes on potential problem students, not all such referrals rose to that level and in those instances the name was not released to all staff - only to those that might need to know (like the subject of a threat/comment, or a teacher or staffer that interacts regularly with the student - often, in my school, a special needs program teacher or aide.

I will close by reiterating that you should NOT release the name of the student ... unless, of course, your career means nothing to you, and you are willing to risk being sued.

 

[HSteacher1]

As a teacher, you SHOULD NOT release a student's name to the public concerning this incident. You can and probably will lose your job if you do so - and rightly so. Unless you know all the facts, you would be taking a knee-jerk action that could cause irreparable harm not only to your career, but, possibly to an innocent (or merely disturbed or stupid) student.

*IF* I go to the local paper about this, I would not use the student's name. I would explain the events and response to events surrounding "a student" at the school, just as I have here. I think people in the community should know that there is a student making these threats who is not being expelled. I would only take that step if the student isn't expelled, and if I felt there was no other way to promote the safety of the other students and staff. I feel very trapped because I feel that it is morally wrong to remain silent in the face of these threats. If the student acts on these threats and I knew about them and said nothing, I'm morally implicated. Maybe not legally, but morally. I don't have faith in my administrator doing the right thing; I have seen him make bad decisions over and over.

I asked my colleague, the one who was there for the second threat, to describe how it went. She said she had asked him to put away his phone, he was defiant, so she asked him to step outside, and as he exited the room he said, "I'm going to shoot this school up." When she confronted him about it in the hall, he denied it. At that point she took it to the teacher in charge and the student's main teacher, and the main teacher said the student had made the threat the previous day, and also said something about doing "mass murder." But the main teacher didn't take him seriously then and just gave him a warning, without informing anyone about what happened. The teacher in charge told him he should have taken it seriously and he should have informed him (the teacher in charge) when it happened. At that point the kid was sent home, but the next morning he returned to the school with a parent to meet with the principal. He was not, then, under suspension yet. Why not, I do not know, I don't know why he wasn't immediately suspended for at least three days--other students have been suspended for three days immediately when they threatened merely to hit someone. Anyway, after the meeting, which the police attended, he was suspended for five days, the maximum length of suspension, and the principal said they would be considering expulsion. The rest I've already covered here--basically the principal is talking like expulsion isn't going to happen.

The main teacher and the teacher in charge both don't think the kid would actually do it, so they aren't in favor of expulsion. My colleague who was there for the second threat does think he would act on it, and so does another teacher who used to have the student last year. The main teacher is basing his assumption that he wouldn't on the fact that he (the teacher) has worked with other students in the past who were more obvious hot heads who had shorter triggers and were more likely to lash out if angered. I don't think he takes into account that most school shootings are cold, premeditated acts. You only have to look at some of the videos school shooters have made before the massacres to see that they don't look like hot heads and they don't seem especially riled up and upset. This teacher is not a psychologist or a profiler and he has no expertise on determining whether a student is capable of mass murder or not. I really don't think it's appropriate to rely on his "gut feeling" about the student in making this decision.

What it comes down to for me is the student made the threat twice, both times saying directly that *he* wants to "shoot up the school." At this point I and several other teachers and staff are experiencing fear about him carrying it out, and we are afraid for the safety of students and staff and for our own safety. Even if the student would not act on his threats he has succeeded in creating an atmosphere of dread. To me, that's the definition of terrorism. I don't think it's right that my options, if the principal chooses not to recommend expulsion, are to work in an environment I feel is unsafe, without having the right to warn others, or to take an unpaid leave of absence. I don't see why the rights of a student who has made two direct threats trump the rights of the rest of the students and staff.

I don't think he has an IEP. I know how IEPs can complicate things, believe me. But at the staff meeting no one said, "Well, he has an IEP so..." as they would in other situations regarding students with IEPs.

 

[cbg]

But you do think it right that you should be able to control not only the release of information, but the discipline of the student, on an issue where you were not present and know of only through second-hand sources?

I see.

 

[HSteacher1]

But you do think it right that you should be able to control not only the release of information, but the discipline of the student, on an issue where you were not present and know of only through second-hand sources?

I see.

This is easy to say when no one is threatening to do violence to you at your work.

 

[cbg]

I would be answering differently if you had first-hand knowledge of the situation. But you don't.

 

[HSteacher1]

I would be answering differently if you had first-hand knowledge of the situation. But you don't.

I have written out my colleague's version of events almost word for word. I've known her four years and I trust her. I've known the other colleague who thinks the student would act on his threats for eleven years, and I trust him. I've known the teacher who mainly works with the student, and thinks he wouldn't, for two years, and I've seen him make some bad choices, ironically in terms of breaching confidentiality, so I don't trust him. The teacher in charge is a good guy, I've known him for 5 years, but he's the kind to never want to believe anyone would ever do anything really bad.

My classroom is next door to the colleague who received the second threat. It's across from the main teacher, who received the first. Are you going to confidently tell me I am at no risk because the main teacher says so? My next door colleague is just as upset about this as I am, she wants expulsion, too. The only reason you're hearing from me and not her is because she's so upset about this she asked to not be contacted about it until Monday. If anything, her having first-hand knowledge has made her more upset than me, in that she wasn't able to reach out for advice.

You can argue that my fears aren't valid all you want, but ask yourself honestly--if you heard about a co-worker who you don't personally know saying he was going to shoot up your place of business, from someone that you've known for four years and trust, how would you want that handled?

 

[HSteacher1]

I would be answering differently if you had first-hand knowledge of the situation. But you don't.

Also, the principal doesn't have first-hand knowledge of the situation either. He's present on campus less than 20% of the time. Why does he get to decide how it's handled?

 

[cbg]

Because that's his job. It's not yours.

Please show me where I said you're wrong to be concerned. What I said is that it is not up to you to make the decisions when you were not present at the time, did not hear the student personally, were not involved in the investigation and only know a second hand version of the events.

 

[I'mTheFather]

Also, the principal doesn't have first-hand knowledge of the situation either. He's present on campus less than 20% of the time. Why does he get to decide how it's handled?

I would be concerned, truly I would. However, what do you want us to say? You have a choice to make. Do what you think is right, and risk your job/license, or let the administration handle it. It's up to you.

I do want to note that the principal isn't making the decision about expulsion if it's going to the board.


ETA: One more thing... If the student is intent on "shooting up the school," he doesn't have to be in it to do so.