What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)?
Alabama
Lengthy but will have all the facts:
I built a new home in south Alabama and installed the best Heating/cooling system available on the market. It is a Carrier Infinity 5 stage heat pump, 4 zone system with a variable speed air-handler. The equipment and system is fully communicating and the installed coast was $25,000 ~ 2x of a conventional system.
I have a critical room in the home that needs to be maintained at 65° in evening for my wife.
I am a retired ME with an HVAC background and spent a week or more looking at equipment specifications, performance and reading Carrier’s technical literature eventually settling on Carrier 25VNA8 Infinity 4 ton unit.
I contacted a local contractor who represented themselves as a “Factory Authorized Dealer” for Carrier which may be important. Factor authorized dealers have to meet exceptional standards to obtain the designation whereas other dealers do not and the do not have the additional training.
Unfortunately (possibly) I did my own load calculations and designed the system ductwork. The contractor also did their own load calculations but not the duct design. They recommended a 5 ton system but I concluded a 4 ton system was sufficient and it was installed. It easily meets the demand in heating and cooling. Without a lot of detail the 4 ton system supplies 1,200 CFM of conditioned air and the 5 ton will supply approx. 1,500 CFM.
The manufacturer states in all of the literature and technical data that the 25VNA8 Infinity system is capable of running in stage 1 heating or cooling which is 1 ton (25% capacity - approx. 325 CFM). AND that the unit will provide cooling down to 40° outside air temperatures after which it is locked out.
The issue: All duct systems a designed to carry a certain volume of air (CFM) at a properly design velocity so as to deliver that air to remote points within the home with minimal noise and acceptable static pressures. As the CFM increases in the duct system the noise and static pressure will increase exponentially making the space noisy and uncomfortable.
Duct systems are carefully designed and sized to carry the requested CFM at proper velocity and static pressures with a safety margin of approximately 50% or 150% of the desired volume.
Carrier specifies the subject equipment will operate in cooling mode down to an outside temperature of 40°F. This means the calculated minimum CFM the system will deliver in this case is 414 CFM. All of the system trunks are designed to carry 700 CFM maximum, well within any margin of error.
What Carrier deliberately failed to state in any of their technical documentation, brochures or at classes with their dealers is that the equipment actually will not stage down to 25% if the outside air temperature is below 60°. It will only run in stage 2 or greater which will exceed the design volume of all of the individual trunks lines ultimately causing a system shutdown.
Carrier also failed to state in any of their technical literature that the system will only run in cooling mode at a minimum stage 4 if the outside temperature is between 55° and 40°. This means that every trunk line in the zones would need the capability to carry the full system volume of 1,200 CFM and deliver it into a typical 500 square foot zone – impossible and it would be similar to a hurricane if it were possible. Carrier held this knowledge closely and their top technical people were unaware of it.
The problem I have is Carrier will not modify their software to make this system work so I am left with a new home and no heat or air conditioning 4 months out of the year. I spent over 100 hours figuring out and documenting the system and finally figured out what was occurring. A senior tech on the west coast managed to get me a chart from Carrier showing exactly what I had concluded and verifying that Carrier was aware of the limitation.
After 3 months of no support from the contractor or the distributor providing technical support I contacted Carrier on their support line. I was assigned a case number and provided them with a detailed report complete with photographs. They contacted the distribution support team and my claim was verified – I was correct. I was told that they had sent it on to Carrier Engineering and there it sits.
It will cost approximately $85,000 to remove their equipment and replace it with a smaller 3 unit system plus provide me housing during the construction. It may cost more and it may take more than a month for the work since the home is now finished.
Couple of questions and I will say if I need legal I have likely already lost:
Has Carrier committer consumer fraud by not disclosing the limitation of the equipment and misrepresenting the specifications that I obviously relied on to design the system?
Is fraud the correct issue or is there something different?
I don’t have much money left after the build (I’m 70 also) and the last thing I need is a high dollar lawyer who may or may not know what they are doing if they go up against Carrier (huge company).
How do I find out who can receive process service for Carrier who’s parent company is United Technologies.
Are punitive damages available in this type of case? If so, I may find an attorney to take it on contingency. All I want is a working system that I paid for.
All other advice is appreciated … other than a window air conditioner … lol.
Thank you
Alabama
Lengthy but will have all the facts:
I built a new home in south Alabama and installed the best Heating/cooling system available on the market. It is a Carrier Infinity 5 stage heat pump, 4 zone system with a variable speed air-handler. The equipment and system is fully communicating and the installed coast was $25,000 ~ 2x of a conventional system.
I have a critical room in the home that needs to be maintained at 65° in evening for my wife.
I am a retired ME with an HVAC background and spent a week or more looking at equipment specifications, performance and reading Carrier’s technical literature eventually settling on Carrier 25VNA8 Infinity 4 ton unit.
I contacted a local contractor who represented themselves as a “Factory Authorized Dealer” for Carrier which may be important. Factor authorized dealers have to meet exceptional standards to obtain the designation whereas other dealers do not and the do not have the additional training.
Unfortunately (possibly) I did my own load calculations and designed the system ductwork. The contractor also did their own load calculations but not the duct design. They recommended a 5 ton system but I concluded a 4 ton system was sufficient and it was installed. It easily meets the demand in heating and cooling. Without a lot of detail the 4 ton system supplies 1,200 CFM of conditioned air and the 5 ton will supply approx. 1,500 CFM.
The manufacturer states in all of the literature and technical data that the 25VNA8 Infinity system is capable of running in stage 1 heating or cooling which is 1 ton (25% capacity - approx. 325 CFM). AND that the unit will provide cooling down to 40° outside air temperatures after which it is locked out.
The issue: All duct systems a designed to carry a certain volume of air (CFM) at a properly design velocity so as to deliver that air to remote points within the home with minimal noise and acceptable static pressures. As the CFM increases in the duct system the noise and static pressure will increase exponentially making the space noisy and uncomfortable.
Duct systems are carefully designed and sized to carry the requested CFM at proper velocity and static pressures with a safety margin of approximately 50% or 150% of the desired volume.
Carrier specifies the subject equipment will operate in cooling mode down to an outside temperature of 40°F. This means the calculated minimum CFM the system will deliver in this case is 414 CFM. All of the system trunks are designed to carry 700 CFM maximum, well within any margin of error.
What Carrier deliberately failed to state in any of their technical documentation, brochures or at classes with their dealers is that the equipment actually will not stage down to 25% if the outside air temperature is below 60°. It will only run in stage 2 or greater which will exceed the design volume of all of the individual trunks lines ultimately causing a system shutdown.
Carrier also failed to state in any of their technical literature that the system will only run in cooling mode at a minimum stage 4 if the outside temperature is between 55° and 40°. This means that every trunk line in the zones would need the capability to carry the full system volume of 1,200 CFM and deliver it into a typical 500 square foot zone – impossible and it would be similar to a hurricane if it were possible. Carrier held this knowledge closely and their top technical people were unaware of it.
The problem I have is Carrier will not modify their software to make this system work so I am left with a new home and no heat or air conditioning 4 months out of the year. I spent over 100 hours figuring out and documenting the system and finally figured out what was occurring. A senior tech on the west coast managed to get me a chart from Carrier showing exactly what I had concluded and verifying that Carrier was aware of the limitation.
After 3 months of no support from the contractor or the distributor providing technical support I contacted Carrier on their support line. I was assigned a case number and provided them with a detailed report complete with photographs. They contacted the distribution support team and my claim was verified – I was correct. I was told that they had sent it on to Carrier Engineering and there it sits.
It will cost approximately $85,000 to remove their equipment and replace it with a smaller 3 unit system plus provide me housing during the construction. It may cost more and it may take more than a month for the work since the home is now finished.
Couple of questions and I will say if I need legal I have likely already lost:
Has Carrier committer consumer fraud by not disclosing the limitation of the equipment and misrepresenting the specifications that I obviously relied on to design the system?
Is fraud the correct issue or is there something different?
I don’t have much money left after the build (I’m 70 also) and the last thing I need is a high dollar lawyer who may or may not know what they are doing if they go up against Carrier (huge company).
How do I find out who can receive process service for Carrier who’s parent company is United Technologies.
Are punitive damages available in this type of case? If so, I may find an attorney to take it on contingency. All I want is a working system that I paid for.
All other advice is appreciated … other than a window air conditioner … lol.
Thank you
