Title on home owners insurance when 4 siblings own the house.

[Reseeker]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? CA
Myself and 3 siblings inherited my fathers house when he passed. My oldest brother was executor of my fathers estate. It has been several years & all property has been distributed from my fathers Trust (including his house). We have a grant Deed naming each of the 4 siblings as equal owners and I have been told by the home owners insurance that all 4 of us are listed on the home owners insurance policy. But the title of the policy remains in the name of the one sibling who was the executor of the estate, followed by Et All. I have been making my own payment annually to the insurance company for 1/4 of the premium when the premium is due. Yet I have been told that I cannot have a copy of the policy. Should I be concerned? Am I represented equally? If there was a claim and an insurance payout was due, would each of the 4 siblings receive a check for 1/4 of the insurance payout? Or would one check be written as the title of the policy reads--in only 1 name followed by et all? If so, could I be excluded from participating in decisions concerning the property (things like selecting the contractor to repair the house, access to or involvement in making the actual payments for repairs,etc). We have no agreement among us on who is managing the property. If I am not equally represented, what should I do to correct the problem?

 

[FlyingRon]

You have to read the actual policy, not just the "title." Read it or take it to your own agent or attorney rather than relying on what you "were told."

Note that you can't just stick your head in the sand and claim your interests are protected by submitting a quarter of the premium. You must assure that the entire premium is being submitted. If your coowners aren't paying, you better step up to protect your interest. Who told you you couldn't have a copy of the policy? You keep saying people are telling you things, but you need to get first hand information.

 

[Reseeker]

Reseeker

Thankyou Ron, the policy was originated by my brother when he was executor of my fathers estate. Then the insurance company just kept mailing the renewal paperwork (I believe it is called policy declaration at renewal) to my brother (with Et all after his name) after the estate was closed & title was transferred to the 4 of us. I have requested to have the information mailed to me also, but was told that they only mail one copy out automatically, but they would give me a copy of the annual declaration if I requested it. I have never received a copy of the actual policy. I have asked the insurance company for a copy of the policy, but have been told that I can only have a copy of the policy declaration (the annual renewal sheet). At this point I am not worried that the renewal premium is being paid; all of us are responsible people & recognize the importance of insurance. One person, my brother is making the payment for the other 3 and then getting reimbursed by them. I choose to handle my own affairs. My question is: if there was a loss claim, would payment be made only to my brother? We don't agree on use of the property. It has been vacant for several years & I would like to see it rented. If there was a loss claim payout I want to be equally represented in decisions. It seems the only way I could assure that is if 1/4 of the payout went to me.

 

[adjusterjack]

if there was a loss claim, would payment be made only to my brother?

I am a retired claim rep. I spent 35 years in the insurance industry.

I have to tell you that there is no way of answering your questions about your policy without reading the policy (the declaration page and all the forms) and since you can't get all that you can't get the policy read to answer the questions. Catch 22.

I suggest you take that declarations page to your own insurance agent who might be able to decipher all the form numbers and come up with at least sample forms.

That the declarations page says "et al" leads me to believe that the insurance company has a record of all 4 of you as Named Insureds but I wouldn't want to guarantee that.

Another thing, and this raises alarms, you note that the house is vacant. Insurance policies typically exclude coverage for certain causes of loss when a property is vacant (often theft and vandalism, maybe others).

You really need to get this resolved before something expensive happens to the house and you find out (too late) that there is no coverage. Even if it takes all 4 of you sitting down together in front of the insurance agent for the policy and getting it updated and copies made for all of you.

The alternative is that you go out and buy a policy on the house under your own name and pay for it yourself. Being on the deed gives you an Insurable Interest. The downside is that a beat up vacant house is relegated to the non-standard insurance market and will cost you a lot more than a standard homeowners policy would cost.

Now you know why leaving your house jointly to your children is an incredibly bad idea. Don't do it to your children.

 

[Reseeker]

Reseeker

Thankyou Jack, yes, the insurance company has named all of the siblings on the policy. But I read on the internet that even if there are several people named on the policy, someone has to be the "named insured". Since my brother was the executor and he is named in the et all phrase, I assume they are calling him the "named insured". I am not comfortable with having him receive any of my payout if there was a claim due to loss. Our communication with each other is almost nil. If a payout went to him, I fear I would be denied any say in what should transpire for the house. I am no willing to give that up. I have my ownership of the property in my living trust, and in the event of a big payout, I want my share of the claim to be paid in my name for my living trust. What do you think my options are? Could I prove my ownership by giving them a copy of my grant Deed showing title to my Living Trust and if they refuse to add me as named insured could I cancel the policy? Do I have any right to cancel the policy? Then we would have to get a new one & I would insist on being a named insured. I just want equal representation to match my equal ownership. I was never informed that I might be giving something up and I never agreed to it. Thankyou Jack for you input. I really appreciate it.

 

[adjusterjack]

the insurance company has named all of the siblings on the policy. But I read on the internet that even if there are several people named on the policy, someone has to be the "named insured".

A "Named Insured" can be one or more people and/or entities. When the "Named Insured" on the dec page says et al there is generally an endorsement form attached to the policy that lists all of the "Named Insureds."

Since my brother was the executor and he is named in the et all phrase, I assume they are calling him the "named insured". I am not comfortable with having him receive any of my payout if there was a claim due to loss. Our communication with each other is almost nil. If a payout went to him, I fear I would be denied any say in what should transpire for the house. I am no willing to give that up.

Then you have a real problem there.

I have my ownership of the property in my living trust,

Does the insurance policy list your trust as a "Named Insured"? Of course, you have no way of knowing that.

and in the event of a big payout, I want my share of the claim to be paid in my name for my living trust.

In the event of a claim one check gets issued in the names of all of the "Named Insureds."

What do you think my options are? Could I prove my ownership by giving them a copy of my grant Deed showing title to my Living Trust and if they refuse to add me as named insured could I cancel the policy? Do I have any right to cancel the policy?

Cancelling the policy would require the signatures of all of the "Named Insureds."

You can certainly present your deed to the agent and ask that your trust be added as "Named Insured." No way to predict how that will go, though it's routinely done.

I just want equal representation to match my equal ownership. I was never informed that I might be giving something up and I never agreed to it.

You have a copy of the dec page. On it should be the name of the agent. All I can suggest is that you contact the agent and discuss the issues.

If you can't resolve the issues with the agent you'll have to resolve them with your brother and/or siblings.

If you can't resolve the issues with your brother and/or siblings you're all going to end up paying lawyers or nothing changes.

One option is to force the sale of the property through a "partition action" (google it) and that gets you out from under all of this.

Sorry to have to paint such a bleak picture but estrangement of siblings is a common problem when property is inherited jointly. The testator just wasn't thinking straight.

 

[Reseeker]

Reseeker

A "Named Insured" can be one or more people and/or entities. When the "Named Insured" on the dec page says et al there is generally an endorsement form attached to the policy that lists all of the "Named Insureds."
I have had a few discussions with them in the past. They always say that I am listed, but they have never said how.


Then you have a real problem there.
I am just seeing that now.


Does the insurance policy list your trust as a "Named Insured"? Of course, you have no way of knowing that.
Actually, that is what brought it up. I just recently formed my own living trust & my attorney gave me this homework: request any insurance company who insures any real estate in your trust as an additional insured as "my name as trustee of my trust". I spoke to the agent, gave him a letter with copy of the instructions requesting this. Then I phoned him a couple days later & let them know that I will be sending a copy of my trust grant deed for the property when I receive it (it is currently being recorded) to confirm my ownership and that title of my share is in my trust. The agent mentioned that it was currently with "indemnity".


In the event of a claim one check gets issued in the names of all of the "Named Insureds."
my attorney said that if I am named as "additional insured" it will make sure proceeds can be placed in the Trust if there is a loss when I am not able to be trustee. Do you know what the difference is between "named insured" & "additional insured"? If I am put on as "additional insured" would a check be written to me in the name of my Trust? I see I definitely need to follow up on this & make sure my request is carried out.
I definitely don't like how it is set up.

Cancelling the policy would require the signatures of all of the "Named Insureds".
If I was put on as a "named insured" & the check was written to all of us, could I refuse to sign unless my portion was given to me?

You can certainly present your deed to the agent and ask that your trust be added as "Named Insured." No way to predict how that will go, though it's routinely done.
Yes, I will definitely follow-up on this when I receive my recorded copy of the trust.

One option is to force the sale of the property through a "partition action" (google it) and that gets you out from under all of this.
Yes, I had heard about forcing the sale. Will look it up.

Sorry to have to paint such a bleak picture but estrangement of siblings is a common problem when property is inherited jointly. The testator just wasn't thinking straight.

Thankyou so much Jack. Looks like I have a real problem here! (No joke)

 

[Zigner]

Have you asked your brother for a copy?

 

[Reseeker]

Have you asked your brother for a copy?

There are problems. We could not agree on use. The house is sitting vacant (but cared for) so the insurance company insured it. it could be bringing in $2500/mo in rent. Communication is nil. I am forced to work around him.

 

[Zigner]

There are problems. We could not agree on use. The house is sitting vacant (but cared for) so the insurance company insured it. it could be bringing in $2500/mo in rent. Communication is nil. I am forced to work around him.

I'll take that to mean "no."

Ask your brother. It's business

 

[Reseeker]

I'll take that to mean "no."

Ask your brother. It's business

Good point. I will see how it plays out with the insurance company & consider it. I have asked what is his goal for the property & he says "I don't want to rent".

 

[adjusterjack]

Good point. I will see how it plays out with the insurance company & consider it. I have asked what is his goal for the property & he says "I don't want to rent".

Can't say as I blame him for that. I was a landlord for 20 years. It's not a happy avocation and using a management company brings its own share of problems.

But so does owning a vacant home. It may be cared for and insurable but it's still got the vacancy exclusion unless the insurance company waived it by endorsement.

Might ask about that, too.

 

[Reseeker]

[It may be cared for and insurable but it's still got the vacancy exclusion unless the insurance company waived it by endorsement.

Might ask about that, too.[/QUOTE]
Thankyou! I will do that.

 

[STEPHAN]

Under these circumstances it might be the best to sell it.

 

[Reseeker]

It’s been almost 1 year. I provided my grant deed to the insurance company showing that my share of the house is in my living trust. The document I got shows:
Additional insured: 1
Trustee name: (my name) 2017 Revokable Trust dated 6/1/17.
Then under conditions respecting binder, it says: is subject to the terms, exclusions and conditions of the company’s policy form, and of the forms and endorsements approved for use with such policy.
Is it a problem if I don’t have the “policy form” and the “forms and endorsements approved for use with such policy”?

I have asked to see the policy, declarations & endorsements. I have been told that only my brother has access to those documents because he “owns” the policy. The analogy I was given is that it is like his “bank account”. The policy is over 30 years old, and was opened by my parents before they passed. I have been told that the policy should have been rewritten when the 4 siblings inherited the house and a mistake was made when it wasn’t. He was the executor of the estate. So, if my parents opened the policy and the house was inherited by the 4 siblings, and the policy was never rewritten and it should have been, I don’t understand why my brother “owns” the policy & I can’t see the policy, declarations & endorsements. Is it because he was the executor of the estate at the time? After my father passed, the policy was put in the name of “My Brother, Et All”. I think that was the name on my fathers trust while my brother was executor. He never notified the insurance company that the house had been transferred to the 4 siblings. They just became aware of that recently. The estate has been closed for over 10 years. Why is he considered owner of the policy?

We have been told that the policy will not be renewed when it expires at the end of the term (2/19). No one has lived in the house since my dad passed. 3 of the siblings (including my brother) live within walking distance of the inherited house. In addition to not letting them know that the trust was closed & the house had been transferred to the 4 siblings, my brother removed the propane tank, so the house has no heat or hot water. So, it will be rewritten to a Landlord Policy. I asked how the new policy will be titled and I am very concerned because I was told that there will be only ONE named insured (whoever we decide) and the other 3 would be listed as “additional interests”. Maybe I didn’t understand it correctly, but I read that additional interests on a policy have no insurance—only the named insured is insured. If there was a claim, the check would be made out to the one named insured. I was told by the agent, that insurance does not effect ownership. That the other 3 still own the house, but there is just ONE named insured & this person is the insured person. I would like all 4 of us listed as named insured on the new policy. We are all separate adults, with individual circumstances and children of our own. It seems that we should all be listed as additional INSURED, not additional INTERESTS. I read that this is possible in some other ways. One way was to form a partnership and then title the policy in the name of the partnership. But I am afraid that the 4 of us will not agree to that. Another way to have all the siblings on the policy as insured is to title it: (one name) IN CAR OF (the other 3 names). I asked the agent if this was possible & he said no, it is not their policy. I have Also read that when there are multiple owners, it is good to have a provision in the policy that no changes can be made on the policy going forward unless all agree. But I have been told by the agent that only the named insured can make changes to the policy. At this point, I am thinking we need to look for another insurance carrier that can meet all of our needs. It seems like what he is describing represents only ONE person. Is it possible that he is “catering” to my brother? I am wondering because I also read that the named insured is defended against any claims, but additional interests are not. It sounds like it has the potential to be a can of worms if there were ever a claim. I don’t feel comfortable as an additional interest. I want insurance. How important is all of this? Can someone give advice? Do certain insurance companies specialize in certain policies? Should I call around to try to find one that will insure all 4of us? It does not seem like insurance for a Landlord policy with 4owners should be unusual. Why would they insure only one of us?