California- How can I receive the full Trust

[robert_1959]

What is the name of your state? - California
I requested a couple of times on email and Cert. Letters from the Trustee the full completed Trust and Will, but they refused because per Trustee's statement, I'm not a Heir... (but he stated I'm a relative) My relative died without wife, kids, parents and I'm his brother's daughter, I'm his Niece. I just filed the DE-154 for the Probate Court (and requested this document also and all related documents). The first court date is on 06-11. What else I can do to force the Trustee to send me? Also, I requested the Death Certifications for my relative and his wife who died the last year but they are not sending either.
I'm not a Beneficiary of the Will/ Trust, and they are completely ignoring me. Thank you for your help.

 

[PayrollHRGuy]

https://law.freeadvice.com/estate_planning/wills/will-copy.htm
Here is an article on the issue of the will. I can't see you have the right to see the will and am having a hard time figuring out why it is so important to you.

In the State of California, authorized copies of vital records can only be obtained by the individual named on the record, parents of the individual named on the record, and certain other individuals or entities specified in law. All other requestors can only obtain informational copies. All copies issued are “certified copies.” A niece isn't going to get an authorized copy. You can get an informational copy.

https://www.cdph.ca.gov/Programs/CHSI/Pages/Vital-Records-Obtaining-Certified-Copies-of-Birth--Death-Records.aspx

 

[adjusterjack]

What else I can do to force the Trustee to send me?

Obviously, when you get to court, you'll have to convince the judge to order the trustee to produce those documents for you.

How you convince the judge or whether you'll be successful is beyond me.

 

[Taxing Matters]

What else I can do to force the Trustee to send me?

The only way to force the trustee to provide the full copy of the trust or anything else is to sue in court and get the court to order the trustee to do it. In order to succeed, you have to prove to the court that the law entitles you to that. California law sets out which persons are entitled to a copy of the trust. Under Probate Code section 16061.7(b), those persons are beneficiaries of the trust and in some instances heirs of the deceased settlor. Heir and relative are not the same thing. Heir means "any person, including the surviving spouse, who is entitled to take property of the decedent by intestate succession under this code." Probate Code § 44. So if you are not one who would have inherited under intestate succession, you aren't an heir.

In any event, if you know already you are not a beneficiary, why do you want a copy of the trust?

 

[Taxing Matters]

https://law.freeadvice.com/estate_planning/wills/will-copy.htm
Here is an article on the issue of the will. I can't see you have the right to see the will and am having a hard time figuring out why it is so important to you.

The will isn't the problem. The will matters if it has been submitted for probate, and once submitted the will is a public record that anyone can look at. Moreover, the trustee of the trust has no obligations to provide a copy of the will since the trust has nothing to do with the will. It is the obligation of the estate personal representative/executor to deal with the will. While the same person might do both jobs, they are distinct. It is the trust that the public cannot get and will not see unless the trustee decides to disclose it or is forced to do so by a court.

 

[justalayman]

The only way to force the trustee to provide the full copy of the trust or anything else is to sue in court and get the court to order the trustee to do it. In order to succeed, you have to prove to the court that the law entitles you to that. California law sets out which persons are entitled to a copy of the trust. Under Probate Code section 16061.7(b), those persons are beneficiaries of the trust and in some instances heirs of the deceased settlor. Heir and relative are not the same thing. Heir means "any person, including the surviving spouse, who is entitled to take property of the decedent by intestate succession under this code." Probate Code § 44. So if you are not one who would have inherited under intestate succession, you aren't an heir.

In any event, if you know already you are not a beneficiary, why do you want a copy of the trust?

Op hasn’t stated if her parent (the one that is a sibling of the decedent) is alive and op stated decedent has no spouse, children, or parents and as such, a sibling would stand next as heir, so, if the ops parent is deceased, would op be considered an heir to the decedent in question?

 

[PayrollHRGuy]

The will isn't the problem. The will matters if it has been submitted for probate, and once submitted the will is a public record that anyone can look at. Moreover, the trustee of the trust has no obligations to provide a copy of the will since the trust has nothing to do with the will. It is the obligation of the estate personal representative/executor to deal with the will. While the same person might do both jobs, they are distinct. It is the trust that the public cannot get and will not see unless the trustee decides to disclose it or is forced to do so by a court.

I understand but she did mention the will in her OP. You replied re: the trust before I could find the CA law on the issue.

 

[Taxing Matters]

Op hasn’t stated if her parent (the one that is a sibling of the decedent) is alive and op stated decedent has no spouse, children, or parents and as such, a sibling would stand next as heir, so, if the ops parent is deceased, would op be considered an heir to the decedent in question?

She would, but of course we don't have the full facts to know if she fits within being an heir. My point in the post was to ensure she understood the distinction between relative and heir since my experience with clients is that most people do not appreciate that there is a difference. The fact that she says the trustee claims she is not an heir means that there is apparently some question about whether she may be an heir.

 

[justalayman]

She would, but of course we don't have the full facts to know if she fits within being an heir. My point in the post was to ensure she understood the distinction between relative and heir since my experience with clients is that most people do not appreciate that there is a difference. The fact that she says the trustee claims she is not an heir means that there is apparently some question about whether she may be an heir.

It was more a question of curiosity as I suspect the attorney involved has considered the possibility. I just didn’t know if the heirship would extend that far for the concern at hand.

 

[robert_1959]

What is the name of your state? - California
I requested a couple of times on email and Cert. Letters from the Trustee the full completed Trust and Will, but they refused because per Trustee's statement, I'm not a Heir... (but he stated I'm a relative) My relative died without wife, kids, parents and I'm his brother's daughter, I'm his Niece. I just filed the DE-154 for the Probate Court (and requested this document also and all related documents). The first court date is on 06-11. What else I can do to force the Trustee to send me? Also, I requested the Death Certifications for my relative and his wife who died the last year but they are not sending either.
I'm not a Beneficiary of the Will/ Trust, and they are completely ignoring me. Thank you for your help.

OK, I'm not a Beneficiary of the Will because nobody knows I live in California.
Here is the thing:
My relative died without parents, spouse, siblings and kids. I'm one of his closest relative by blood with my brother. My dad was his brother.
I find out my relative deceased couple of months ago from my brother who live in Europe. He told me the Beneficiaries in the Will used my relative and forced him to sign the Trust and Will couple of years earlier. My 2 other cousins who live in California in the Will and couple of other people who not even relatives but was close to my relative because he was very sick and he was depended on these people.
They used him. My relative's wife had Dementia/ Anzelheim who died the last year at 93 (she had this on her Death Certification) . When they forced her to sign the Trust she was 90 with a same condition. This group spent my relative's money daily he gave them blank checks and they used his money whatever they want. My brother try to talk to this group but they ignored him also. We have to do something on this but I don't have a money to fight.
I was at the Court and ask for the Will but they refused me because I don't have the Death Certification to prove I'm relative. This is a 22 catch...no Death Cert available for me because I'm not in the Will and I'm not "close" relative.... Couple of people on the Will (just what was available for the Public and I was able to download from the court docs) listed for Nephews.... How other peoples on the list doesn't need to prove they are a "real" Nephews? I have Birth Certifications translated and Certified to prove, my dad was his brother from the same Father and Mother… The Trustee hired a lawyer, who covering up for this group.

 

[robert_1959]

Obviously, when you get to court, you'll have to convince the judge to order the trustee to produce those documents for you.

How you convince the judge or whether you'll be successful is beyond me.

Maybe with a bunch of Certified Birth Certifications and ask to the other people listed for Nephews to do the same?

 

[robert_1959]

I understand but she did mention the will in her OP. You replied re: the trust before I could find the CA law on the issue.

Noop I can not see the full Will either because in the Court house the Doc. release lady ask me for the Death Cert to prove I'm the close relative...

 

[justalayman]

You being in the will has nothing to do with you being in California or anywhere else. It is up to the testator to determine who is included in a will


You don’t have to be related to obtain a copy of the probate file. It is public record

If his will disposes of all of his property, you don’t inherit anything.


If you wish to contest the will, it will cost money. If you have none, it makes contesting the will difficult if not impossible.


You are in California but where did your uncle reside when he died?

 

[Dandy Don]

You do not need a death certificate in order to get a copy of the will.

The will is public record that ANYONE can order a copy of. The lady at the courthouse was wrong when she denied you a copy of the will, probably because of prejudice if she assumed from your language that you are a foreigner. What country are you from? Ask a friend of yours to order a copy of the will and pay him/her a fee to do that (there will be a small fee for the cost of the copies). And DO NOT go to the courthouse with your friend--ask the friend to bring the copies back to you. Your only interest in reading the will is going to probably be just for your own information, just to see what it says about who gets what. If you are not listed in the will as a beneficiary, there is nothing else you can do.

The trust is not public record and if you are not named as a beneficiary in it, the trustee is not obligated to send you a copy of it.

How did you find out that your relative's wife had dementia at age 90 when she was forced to sign the trust, or who told you that? If there are medical records that prove she had been diagnosed with dementia before she signed the trust, then this could be evidence of undue influence and/or elderly financial abuse.
Do you know anyone in his wife's family (her children or her brothers and sisters) that you could ask to see if they would be interested in helping you contest the trust if necessary, or to bring charges against the cousins and trustee?

Call the California Advocates for Nursing Home Reform at (415) 974-5711 or toll-free at 1-800-474-1116 and ask them for an attorney referral and they can refer you to an elder abuse attorney who can evaluate your case for free, or you can meet with an elder financial abuse attorney in your city.

 

[robert_1959]

You being in the will has nothing to do with you being in California or anywhere else. It is up to the testator to determine who is included in a will


You don’t have to be related to obtain a copy of the probate file. It is public record

If his will disposes of all of his property, you don’t inherit anything.


If you wish to contest the will, it will cost money. If you have none, it makes contesting the will difficult if not impossible.


You are in California but where did your uncle reside when he died?

My uncle lived in California. I'm not in the Will because who ever is in the Will told him no foreigner can inherit in California.
That time (when he signed the Trust and Will) he doesn't know I live in California..
From the downloaded public (whatever was available) document I was able to see, the Witness who signed the Trust was foreigner and I know that guy is not even speaks English. I know my uncle had a hard time with English also.
He had hard to understand the whole thing.
2 other guys from the Beneficiaries Group gave him some advise when the Trust was created. For me the whole Trust is very fishy. My dad, my brother and my uncle had a very close relationship and I want to represent my brother too. My uncle had 10 properties (9) here in California. Now everyone is his relatives.

You do not need a death certificate in order to get a copy of the will.

The will is public record that ANYONE can order a copy of. The lady at the courthouse was wrong when she denied you a copy of the will, probably because of prejudice if she assumed from your language that you are a foreigner. What country are you from? Ask a friend of yours to order a copy of the will and pay him/her a fee to do that (there will be a small fee for the cost of the copies). And DO NOT go to the courthouse with your friend--ask the friend to bring the copies back to you. Your only interest in reading the will is going to probably be just for your own information, just to see what it says about who gets what. If you are not listed in the will as a beneficiary, there is nothing else you can do.

The trust is not public record and if you are not named as a beneficiary in it, the trustee is not obligated to send you a copy of it.

How did you find out that your relative's wife had dementia at age 90 when she was forced to sign the trust, or who told you that? If there are medical records that prove she had been diagnosed with dementia before she signed the trust, then this could be evidence of undue influence and/or elderly financial abuse.
Do you know anyone in his wife's family (her children or her brothers and sisters) that you could ask to see if they would be interested in helping you contest the trust if necessary, or to bring charges against the cousins and trustee?

Call the California Advocates for Nursing Home Reform at (415) 974-5711 or toll-free at 1-800-474-1116 and ask them for an attorney referral and they can refer you to an elder abuse attorney who can evaluate your case for free, or you can meet with an elder financial abuse attorney in your city.

You do not need a death certificate in order to get a copy of the will.

The will is public record that ANYONE can order a copy of. The lady at the courthouse was wrong when she denied you a copy of the will, probably because of prejudice if she assumed from your language that you are a foreigner. What country are you from? Ask a friend of yours to order a copy of the will and pay him/her a fee to do that (there will be a small fee for the cost of the copies). And DO NOT go to the courthouse with your friend--ask the friend to bring the copies back to you. Your only interest in reading the will is going to probably be just for your own information, just to see what it says about who gets what. If you are not listed in the will as a beneficiary, there is nothing else you can do.

The trust is not public record and if you are not named as a beneficiary in it, the trustee is not obligated to send you a copy of it.

How did you find out that your relative's wife had dementia at age 90 when she was forced to sign the trust, or who told you that? If there are medical records that prove she had been diagnosed with dementia before she signed the trust, then this could be evidence of undue influence and/or elderly financial abuse.
Do you know anyone in his wife's family (her children or her brothers and sisters) that you could ask to see if they would be interested in helping you contest the trust if necessary, or to bring charges against the cousins and trustee?

Call the California Advocates for Nursing Home Reform at (415) 974-5711 or toll-free at 1-800-474-1116 and ask them for an attorney referral and they can refer you to an elder abuse attorney who can evaluate your case for free, or you can meet with an elder financial abuse attorney in your city.

You do not need a death certificate in order to get a copy of the will.

The will is public record that ANYONE can order a copy of. The lady at the courthouse was wrong when she denied you a copy of the will, probably because of prejudice if she assumed from your language that you are a foreigner. What country are you from? Ask a friend of yours to order a copy of the will and pay him/her a fee to do that (there will be a small fee for the cost of the copies). And DO NOT go to the courthouse with your friend--ask the friend to bring the copies back to you. Your only interest in reading the will is going to probably be just for your own information, just to see what it says about who gets what. If you are not listed in the will as a beneficiary, there is nothing else you can do.

The trust is not public record and if you are not named as a beneficiary in it, the trustee is not obligated to send you a copy of it.

How did you find out that your relative's wife had dementia at age 90 when she was forced to sign the trust, or who told you that? If there are medical records that prove she had been diagnosed with dementia before she signed the trust, then this could be evidence of undue influence and/or elderly financial abuse.
Do you know anyone in his wife's family (her children or her brothers and sisters) that you could ask to see if they would be interested in helping you contest the trust if necessary, or to bring charges against the cousins and trustee?

Call the California Advocates for Nursing Home Reform at (415) 974-5711 or toll-free at 1-800-474-1116 and ask them for an attorney referral and they can refer you to an elder abuse attorney who can evaluate your case for free, or you can meet with an elder financial abuse attorney in your city.

Thank you so much! This is a first positive advice I got!
I do appreciate any help. I just got my Aunt's Death Certification (email copy) from my Brother and clearly stated the death cause was Dementia/Anzelheim in 2018 and she died in the Conv. Hospital here in California. The Trust and Will was signed in 2015 and she had this already. I know she had, because my Brother told me. You can not die in this condition suddenly she had this disease or condition for a long time. Also her signatures on the Grand Deeds... you can't figure out her name on. .She was 93 when she died and 90 when the Trust was made. I can prove with her condition the Trust is not legal but I can't ask her relatives... They are with one of the guy from the Trust who is acting like a Trustee... All my Aunt's relatives are asking for money and this Trustee promised money to them after the Probate is done.
Thanks for your help again...