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Adolescent doesn't want to speak to father on phone. Does she have to?

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VGJOla

Junior Member
My child's father has had relatively little contact with her since birth. I was determined they have a relationship, so I held on to hope and encouraged him to join us from abroad. He finally did when she was 3, but his idea of fathering is simply loving his child and occasionally telling her what she is doing wrong. He doesn't seem to feel the need to be involved.

Within 6 months of his arrival, our relationship became unbearable for me, but we remained under the same roof for a total of 14 months because he had no where to go and I had sponsored his visa and was therefore financially responsible for him on some level for the next 3 years at least. Things were sometimes cordial, sometimes civil, and sometimes contentious between us, but always cordial toward our child. However, in general, he spent very little time with her. I gave up trying to leave them alone together after the second time I discovered he had left her in the apartment by herself. I finally moved out in the middle of the night with my daughter when he stumbled home drunk after gambling away over $1300. (He had gotten a job, but contributed nothing to the household or to his daughter's support. Instead he spent it on himself, mostly on gambling. I had to continue paying rent and utilities for another 5 months after I moved out because I couldn't get out of the lease.) He had never been violent, but I was afraid of his desperation.

He was not in a position to host our child for the next couple of years, but I tried to take them out to dinner every now and then. I would invite him to her events, but he never attended. Eventually, he started asking to take her overnight and I always let him. She never wanted to go, but I always cajoled her into going. I did not and still do not suspect abuse. While I never thought he would do something like that, out of caution I've pried and I have every reason to believe she would tell me if something untoward had occurred. Her reason for not wanting to go was that all he did was sit on his computer all day when they were together. He didn't really speak to her and she didn't know him, so she was probably uncomfortable and certainly bored. He only asked to take her about once every 3 months or so, which was infrequent enough that I felt I it was reasonable to make her go.

This went on for several years until he became homeless and I allowed him to stay with us for a few months until he could save up for his own place. He only stayed on the weekends, paying for a hotel during the week as his new job was over an hour away. He might still have been able to save, but there was a casino in the city where he was working, so he started gambling again. I eventually had to loan him money to get an apartment on his own. (He has repeatedly said I haven't done enough for him.)

Long story short, I decided for career and financial reasons and for better educational opportunities for my daughter, to move abroad again. I made sure he supported the idea of her moving abroad before I began my job search, and I waited until I had his affidavit to renew her passport in hand before I accepted the offer for my current job.

He tried to extort money from me just before we left the US over two years ago, threatening he would contact the TSA if I didn't cooperate. I ignored him and left anyway. I had my daughter call him after our arrival, but he didn't take the calls. Eventually, when he needed my help with something, he got in touch again. That was 8 months after we had left. He admitted in an email that he hadn't taken her calls because he was mad about "how we left." (In fact, it was because he was mad he hadn't been able to manipulate me into giving him money.)

By the time we came home for a visit about 10 months after we had left, he had moved 1300 miles away. Still I sent pictures and had her call him on occasion. He never called her. His emails asking about her almost always included requests for help or rants about how everyone was out to get him.

About 6 months ago, he sent me a bunch of crazy emails. I had always thought he was crazier than the normal ex, but now it was unavoidably clear that he was completely unstable. A number of things happened that made me realize it was in my child's best interest to sue for sole legal custody. I have always had physical custody (without a decree, but by default) and sole financial responsibility for her, but as things stood, I would need his permission to renew her passport. Based on the extortion attempt and his increasingly irrational behavior, I realized I needed to remedy that, but more importantly, I needed to ensure that if something happened to me, she wouldn't go to him. She doesn't know him. He lives in a place she has never been. He's certifiably crazy. (This isn't just a bitter ex talking. He thinks that he is being followed everywhere he goes and everyone - his apartment manager, the cashiers where he shops, his riders through Uber and Lyft, Onstar, the police, and me and my imaginary boyfriend/new husband (I'm not marrying or seeing anyone!) - are all conspiring with his former employers who are out to destroy him because they are jealous of his talent.)

Based on him not contributing financially to her support for a period of 6 consecutive months (in actuality, her entire life) and a period of 6 consecutive months with no attempt to contact her (only one of these is sufficient to file the petition but I have evidence of both of these things) I filed to terminate his parental rights this summer during our visit home. He has received the petition and is ramping up his rhetoric. He is demanding I call him, which I refuse to do. I need all communication between us to have a paper trail. When I didn't answer his demands to call or even his emails, he called my employer. I am a teacher and my child attends my school. When they wouldn't put me on the phone, he demanded to speak to our daughter. He has her number but he says he won't call it because he believes it is bugged. The school secretary could not locate my child because it was lunchtime, so she came to inform me. I asked her to tell him to call her on her personal phone after school hours and I provided her with my daughter's number.

He may or may not try to call her on her phone, but I know she doesn't want to speak to him. She never does. One reason is because she can't understand his accent on the phone. She says she has never needed him and she doesn't need him now and he's "mean" whenever she speaks to him - trying to make her feel guilty for not calling him more often. But if I tell her she must answer his call, she will.

Do I have to make her answer his calls? I don't want to give him any ammunition but I don't want to traumatize my child. He is likely to put her on the spot asking her if she wants me to "take her away" from him. He told the school secretary it was a "bad" situation and he needed to discuss it with his child. His emails say his life is in imminent danger due to this situation. He has written that he will tell her "everything" which might mean that he will tell her that I am "conspiring to kill" him as he has accused me of doing. I'm not afraid that she will believe him, but she doesn't know that he has lost his mind and I would prefer she not know it. (She is a few months shy of 13, so really emotionally vulnerable.) I also don't want her to have to tell him she is okay with never seeing him again if he asks. (She has begged me to not make her see him again. She doesn't hate him and she doesn't fear him, but she feels visiting with him is a burden to her.) But she is a respectful child and she won't have the heart to tell him directly that she doesn't want to see him, yet she won't feel comfortable lying to say she does want to see him.

The hearing is in just over a month. Until that time, he still has parental rights. But does that mean his child is compelled to speak to him?
 


t74

Member
Your description of his actions sound like he may be mentally ill and would benefit from an inpatient assessment since he reports delusions of people following him, etc. Do you know if there have been any law enforcement involvent because of his behavior? I suggest you consult with your attorney given your observations and valid concerns. You might ask if his threats rise to the level of needing a protective order for one or both of you.

Be sure your daughter knows what to do if he attempts to make her go with him or acts strangely in her presence. Make sure she knows how to make a 911 call.

Good luck and please let us know what the attorney advises.
 

Just Blue

Senior Member
My child's father has had relatively little contact with her since birth. I was determined they have a relationship, so I held on to hope and encouraged him to join us from abroad. He finally did when she was 3, but his idea of fathering is simply loving his child and occasionally telling her what she is doing wrong. He doesn't seem to feel the need to be involved.

Within 6 months of his arrival, our relationship became unbearable for me, but we remained under the same roof for a total of 14 months because he had no where to go and I had sponsored his visa and was therefore financially responsible for him on some level for the next 3 years at least. Things were sometimes cordial, sometimes civil, and sometimes contentious between us, but always cordial toward our child. However, in general, he spent very little time with her. I gave up trying to leave them alone together after the second time I discovered he had left her in the apartment by herself. I finally moved out in the middle of the night with my daughter when he stumbled home drunk after gambling away over $1300. (He had gotten a job, but contributed nothing to the household or to his daughter's support. Instead he spent it on himself, mostly on gambling. I had to continue paying rent and utilities for another 5 months after I moved out because I couldn't get out of the lease.) He had never been violent, but I was afraid of his desperation.

He was not in a position to host our child for the next couple of years, but I tried to take them out to dinner every now and then. I would invite him to her events, but he never attended. Eventually, he started asking to take her overnight and I always let him. She never wanted to go, but I always cajoled her into going. I did not and still do not suspect abuse. While I never thought he would do something like that, out of caution I've pried and I have every reason to believe she would tell me if something untoward had occurred. Her reason for not wanting to go was that all he did was sit on his computer all day when they were together. He didn't really speak to her and she didn't know him, so she was probably uncomfortable and certainly bored. He only asked to take her about once every 3 months or so, which was infrequent enough that I felt I it was reasonable to make her go.

This went on for several years until he became homeless and I allowed him to stay with us for a few months until he could save up for his own place. He only stayed on the weekends, paying for a hotel during the week as his new job was over an hour away. He might still have been able to save, but there was a casino in the city where he was working, so he started gambling again. I eventually had to loan him money to get an apartment on his own. (He has repeatedly said I haven't done enough for him.)

Long story short, I decided for career and financial reasons and for better educational opportunities for my daughter, to move abroad again. I made sure he supported the idea of her moving abroad before I began my job search, and I waited until I had his affidavit to renew her passport in hand before I accepted the offer for my current job.

He tried to extort money from me just before we left the US over two years ago, threatening he would contact the TSA if I didn't cooperate. I ignored him and left anyway. I had my daughter call him after our arrival, but he didn't take the calls. Eventually, when he needed my help with something, he got in touch again. That was 8 months after we had left. He admitted in an email that he hadn't taken her calls because he was mad about "how we left." (In fact, it was because he was mad he hadn't been able to manipulate me into giving him money.)

By the time we came home for a visit about 10 months after we had left, he had moved 1300 miles away. Still I sent pictures and had her call him on occasion. He never called her. His emails asking about her almost always included requests for help or rants about how everyone was out to get him.

About 6 months ago, he sent me a bunch of crazy emails. I had always thought he was crazier than the normal ex, but now it was unavoidably clear that he was completely unstable. A number of things happened that made me realize it was in my child's best interest to sue for sole legal custody. I have always had physical custody (without a decree, but by default) and sole financial responsibility for her, but as things stood, I would need his permission to renew her passport. Based on the extortion attempt and his increasingly irrational behavior, I realized I needed to remedy that, but more importantly, I needed to ensure that if something happened to me, she wouldn't go to him. She doesn't know him. He lives in a place she has never been. He's certifiably crazy. (This isn't just a bitter ex talking. He thinks that he is being followed everywhere he goes and everyone - his apartment manager, the cashiers where he shops, his riders through Uber and Lyft, Onstar, the police, and me and my imaginary boyfriend/new husband (I'm not marrying or seeing anyone!) - are all conspiring with his former employers who are out to destroy him because they are jealous of his talent.)

Based on him not contributing financially to her support for a period of 6 consecutive months (in actuality, her entire life) and a period of 6 consecutive months with no attempt to contact her (only one of these is sufficient to file the petition but I have evidence of both of these things) I filed to terminate his parental rights this summer during our visit home. He has received the petition and is ramping up his rhetoric. He is demanding I call him, which I refuse to do. I need all communication between us to have a paper trail. When I didn't answer his demands to call or even his emails, he called my employer. I am a teacher and my child attends my school. When they wouldn't put me on the phone, he demanded to speak to our daughter. He has her number but he says he won't call it because he believes it is bugged. The school secretary could not locate my child because it was lunchtime, so she came to inform me. I asked her to tell him to call her on her personal phone after school hours and I provided her with my daughter's number.

He may or may not try to call her on her phone, but I know she doesn't want to speak to him. She never does. One reason is because she can't understand his accent on the phone. She says she has never needed him and she doesn't need him now and he's "mean" whenever she speaks to him - trying to make her feel guilty for not calling him more often. But if I tell her she must answer his call, she will.

Do I have to make her answer his calls? I don't want to give him any ammunition but I don't want to traumatize my child. He is likely to put her on the spot asking her if she wants me to "take her away" from him. He told the school secretary it was a "bad" situation and he needed to discuss it with his child. His emails say his life is in imminent danger due to this situation. He has written that he will tell her "everything" which might mean that he will tell her that I am "conspiring to kill" him as he has accused me of doing. I'm not afraid that she will believe him, but she doesn't know that he has lost his mind and I would prefer she not know it. (She is a few months shy of 13, so really emotionally vulnerable.) I also don't want her to have to tell him she is okay with never seeing him again if he asks. (She has begged me to not make her see him again. She doesn't hate him and she doesn't fear him, but she feels visiting with him is a burden to her.) But she is a respectful child and she won't have the heart to tell him directly that she doesn't want to see him, yet she won't feel comfortable lying to say she does want to see him.

The hearing is in just over a month. Until that time, he still has parental rights. But does that mean his child is compelled to speak to him?
What state?
 

VGJOla

Junior Member
What state?
The petition was filed in Louisiana, but he has moved to New York, and we spend the bulk of the year overseas. Our only shared residence in the US was in Louisiana. It was my child's birthplace and her home from the age of 18 months until we moved overseas again two years ago when she was nearly 11. She has only lived in Louisiana and overseas. Our permanent address is still there. Until he moved away a little over a year ago, his only residence in the US was in Louisiana.
 
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VGJOla

Junior Member
Your description of his actions sound like he may be mentally ill and would benefit from an inpatient assessment since he reports delusions of people following him, etc. Do you know if there have been any law enforcement involvent because of his behavior? I suggest you consult with your attorney given your observations and valid concerns. You might ask if his threats rise to the level of needing a protective order for one or both of you.

Be sure your daughter knows what to do if he attempts to make her go with him or acts strangely in her presence. Make sure she knows how to make a 911 call.

Good luck and please let us know what the attorney advises.
Thank you. I feel sure he needs psychiatric help, but he would never accept that he does and will never seek it. He would have to be forcibly committed. I hope he will never become a danger to himself or anyone else, except that it probably means he will never get the help he needs.

The only reference he has made to the police (other than that he sees them no matter which route he drives proving that his movements are being tracked) was when he was describing the surveillance he believes he is under. He said he can't go to the police to report it because when he went before, they just thought he was crazy.

Fortunately for my daughter, we spend the bulk of the year overseas and he now resides 1300 miles from our home base in the US.
 

stealth2

Under the Radar Member
Has there ever been a support order? If not? Lack of support may not matter.

Was paternity ever legally established? That's important.

As for contact... IF he tries to call her, and he can prove he has? Her refusal to answer may not be taken under consideration as lack of contact.
 

LdiJ

Senior Member
Were you married? Did you divorce? If so, what does the divorce or custody degree say about phone calls or visitation? If there are no court orders at all, then you don't have to make your daughter do anything and probably should not, considering that he is clearly in bad shape.

However, its very difficult to terminate a parent's rights entirely, unless you are married and have a husband willing to do a stepparent adoption. The states want two legal parents financially responsible for children.
 

cbg

I'm a Northern Girl
Here is the bottom line.

If the court has said that she has to be in touch with Dad, then she has to be in touch with Dad and yes, you have to make her take his calls. If a court has NOT said that she has to be in touch with Dad, then she does not have to be in touch with Dad and you can do whatever you want with regards to her contact.

It really is that simple.
 

VGJOla

Junior Member
Were you married? Did you divorce? If so, what does the divorce or custody degree say about phone calls or visitation? If there are no court orders at all, then you don't have to make your daughter do anything and probably should not, considering that he is clearly in bad shape.

However, its very difficult to terminate a parent's rights entirely, unless you are married and have a husband willing to do a stepparent adoption. The states want two legal parents financially responsible for children.
We were married and divorced but because I could not afford a lawyer, I filed myself. We had no custody agreement. It was status quo, which was I had physical custody and I was open and flexible with visitation.

The motion is a Rule Nisi, so unless he answers it, his rights will be terminated.
 

VGJOla

Junior Member
If the court has said that she has to be in touch with Dad, then she has to be in touch with Dad and yes, you have to make her take his calls. If a court has NOT said that she has to be in touch with Dad, then she does not have to be in touch with Dad and you can do whatever you want with regards to her contact.
 

VGJOla

Junior Member
Has there ever been a support order? If not? Lack of support may not matter.

Was paternity ever legally established? That's important.

As for contact... IF he tries to call her, and he can prove he has? Her refusal to answer may not be taken under consideration as lack of contact.
There was never a support order. Paternity was never legally established. I wish paternity were in question, but unfortunately, there isn't a shred of doubt that he is her father. Even though he claims doubt every year or so when he is being dramatic, even he knows she is his.
 

Just Blue

Senior Member
There was never a support order. Paternity was never legally established. I wish paternity were in question, but unfortunately, there isn't a shred of doubt that he is her father. Even though he claims doubt every year or so when he is being dramatic, even he knows she is his.
Was your child conceived before or after you were married? Was she born after you married?
 

cbg

I'm a Northern Girl
Thanks! There has been no court order, so I guess that means she doesn't have to answer.
Not right now. Just be prepared; if he really does want to have contact and goes back to court to get an order, make no mistake, he will get one. And after that, she WILL have to.
 

Taxing Matters

Overtaxed Member
Not right now. Just be prepared; if he really does want to have contact and goes back to court to get an order...
That's not likely, however. He would have to do that in Louisiana or perhaps in the foreign country where the OP lives most of the year. Neither is very easy when he's living in NY.
 

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